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forest defense


You only want to censor me because you are too stubborn to admit your leftist liberal agenda will never work. I've experienced this utopian dream you imagine in your head firsthand and it will always fail due to the natural human tendencies of self-centered individualism...
As some of you may have read from my previous posts I grew up on a hippie commune as a child. I went to the Country Fair every summer and lived a clean and cheap eco-friendly lifestyle that most of you only dream of.

Needless to say, as I got older I saw what a transparent sham the whole liberal socialist "hippie" movement really was. Over time everyone in the family eventually showed their true self-centered individualism regarding money, property, and sexual relationships.

This is why I feel as though I'm uniquely qualified to point out the hypocrisy of 90% of the crap that people try to pass off as news here. I can tell that the majority of you liberal minded people come from wealthy families and should your professional career in protesting not work out I'm sure mommy and daddy will bail you out and let you live in your old room.

You people don't even come close to leading the lifestyle you want everyone else to lead. For instance, you say you don't want any trees to be harvested but I bet every single one of you wipes your ass with toilet paper. Or how about the fact that almost every one of you in Portland lives in a house that was made with "old growth" trees?

You don't want anyone to drive SUV's but yet you drive an old Volvo or VW twice as far as I do in a year and create four times as much pollution. I'd like to analyze some of your livestyles and see just how "green" some of you really are. I bet the results would be surprising.

So, you liberal minded people go ahead and try to fool each other but you can't fool me because I've been there and done that and in the end you will finally grow up and get your shit together and realize that you can't change the world after all. You can only change the small things that fall within your sphere of influence so give it up already.

I don't really give a shit if you put my words in your "daily compost" either(as if any of even knew what the fuck a compost pile was anyway) because I'm sure you all have bigger things to do like protest a war that whether you know it or not is eventually going to save you and your families life. The only reason that any of you are here in the first place is because a lot of good people died for you. Shame on you liberal scum, you will be the death of this country and the sad thing is you will have your stubborn pride until your last breath...
some thoughts 11.Oct.2002 22:42


While I agree that there are many "liberals" that don't lead an eco-friendly lifestyle there are many who do. I'd welcome you to see what many people are doing. No matter what we're locked into the system of oppression and exploitation. For example, I use this computer knowing that the hard drive was made by slave labor. But, I don't drive and I'm vegetarian which are the two biggest changes you make to help the environment. I've done much to the place I'm living to make it more eco-friendly. I do have toilet paper (recycled) but no paper towels, napkins, tissues, etc. I understand that you've been disillusioned by what you've seen, but that doesn't mean that's the way everyone lives.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that according the CIA, attacking Iraq will most likely provoke an attack on this country, while refraining from war will not. Hussein has absolutely no reason to attack us (that's the policy of deterrence). He knows he's dead if he does, so he doesn't. But if we put him in a situation where there's nothing left for him to lose he just might use whatever weapons he has. So, perventing war may be the best way to protect American lives.

I really don't like the "a log of good people dies for you" argument. Because, of course, most of us wouldn't be here unless events had happened exactly as they did, the good and the bad. If it hadn't been for Stalin, I wouldn't have been born. So it seems a trivial argument. On the other hand, if one were to use that argument one could say that the only reason we have a country worth living in has been because of progressives fighting for change. Unless you'd rather have a country with slavery, without women being allowed to vote, without the labor movement (critiques of modern unions aside), the civil rights movement, and these are just the big ones.

Anyway, no ones trying to fool you. You're here, hopefully you're reading as well as writing. Make up your mind for yourself. If you think it's good to go to war, more power to you. I hope that you will consider enlisting to fight for what you believe in. That's not a dig, I just really believe that the people who want to fight should do it. I always said ff there were a war I believed in I would do it. Instead I feel I may have to give my life fighting for something else... To each his or her own...

Trilox - You're a star 11.Oct.2002 22:56

Bush Admirer

What a great post Trilox!

You have real life experiences to share. That's great.

name calling is BIG BROTHER'S DREAM 11.Oct.2002 23:04

atomic frog

unless you eat small corporations , we have a common enemy that doesn't give a flying fuck about left wing, right wing,
or any other fucking thing about any of us other than taxes from work we do, and for now at least a vote.

Neither wing for a reason 12.Oct.2002 02:32

Not a centrist either

It's interesting, Trilox, that you grew up on a hippie commune. I've frequently thought that people who grew up surrounded by one extreme lifestyle often flip over to the other extreme once they gain independence. No judgement there, just a statement of trends I've observed.

I wonder if you wouldn't mind stating why exactly you think many of the people posting to this site come from wealthy backgrounds, and could or would just fall back into the arms of their family under duress. This assumption would not seem to correlate too highly with the cross-section of Indymedia posters I've run across on the streets. In fact, activists seem to be notorious for not having any money when the hat gets passed at fundraisers.

I would also like to take up your challenge to analyze my lifestyle for eco-friendliness. However, I'm not about to post personal details about myself on an internet forum. My friends have been interrogated, followed around, had stuff stolen from them by the FBI. We all know that the PJTTF was just extended, that it is due to becomming a training ground for other JTTFs, and that there are at least 40 federalized police of FBI officers in town with little else to do but check up on Islamic folks and activists. Putting words from my own mouth up here is enough for the profilers to go on without giving them every detail of how I live my life. So, sorry.

By the way, it might be a good time to note that toilet paper, and all other forms of paper, comes from trees which are not suitable for lumber production. It isn't necessarily inconsistent for the same person to post an article here about an old-growth timber protest and then go wipe their ass with toilet paper. Other people would like to point out that hemp is an _ideal_ material for paper production, growing faster and requiring less processing than wood pulp. So, while even pine plantations don't pass muster with the ethical mores of many posters, it's not like people aren't working on it. As for the old-growth homes we live in, well, what are the choices. Portland building code doesn't yet allow for many alternative structures to be built here. Most of the city lots already contain homes, should we just abandon them to rot? That seems pretty damn disrespectful. Many Portland homes were built before any of us were born. Note that before the eighties it was considered pretty anti-social to become concerned about native habitat, partly because there was so much of it left, and partly because of a differing social environment. Now that surveys show the common sentiment to be in favor of preserving native habitat, how are we supposed to condemn an activity that was seen as almost wholely good in the past. No, we just live with it, and appreciate what we have as much as possible, and work to do better in the future.

Maybe people are working on not using toilet paper. Would that necessarily mean that they want to talk about it with strangers? Not necessarily, such an activity is beyond the pale for most recipients of that information. Maybe some activists will devote some time to the issue in their personal futures. Certainly we aren't perfect now, we never will be. That doesn't mean we have to entirely give up on ourselves. It doesn't mean that the process of self-improvement isn't one of the most important things we have going for us. Maybe some activists are from rich families, and will end up falling back on their parents' generosity. To do such a thing would represent a monumental lifestyle change for most activists. Major lifestyle changes do occur for many people at some point in their lives. However, these changes go in all directions, they certainly don't indicate that one life path is right and all others are wrong, or even that certain others are wrong. Usually I would suspect that someone who does undergo such a lifestyle change was probably a little reckless in how they moved in a particular direction. Some people are impatient, and rush into a lifestyle based on the how that lifestyle looks from the outside. People who are more patient usually move slowly, and absorb their new directions internally, one at a time, and become one with their lifestyle. I opine that these people rarely flip-flop. I don't intend to get personal with you here, but it sounds like you were forced into a certain life-style growing up, and perhaps you or the people around you were rushing it, and your current views are based on an insight to that extremism that you witnessed growing up. However, it doesn't mean that we're all so extreme, as you 'trolls' are so fond of assuming, and your insights may not be applicable to us. If you're living the super-mainstream life, you have no worries about the FBI, I don't think any potential lurking wingnuts here have the resources to track you down, so perhaps you could share more about your life experiences. It sounds like a vastly different life than I have led and I'm curious about it.

You talk about how we try to fool each other. It's true that the ideal of a better world requires a suspension of cynicism, but I don't know, I think that's a better direction to try to fool each other in than the paranoid fear that everyone is out to kill us. We are limited to small spheres of influence, but I don't see that as any reason to give up. Your influence is strongest the closer we are to you, and that's the way it should be. You can build a life directly around yourself such as you'd like to see, while of course more distant things are less under your control. I think that it is best to start local and ground yourself there before trying to go global, and I see many activists are doing just that. They build other activists into their lives until they find themselves enjoying themselves and working towards their ideals. Ultimately, a lot of small spheres that overlap harmoniously can have a larger effect. Anyway, in some sense, no broad goal you can have in life is completely attainable, so the cynical viewpoint would say we shouldn't try to do anything at all. And maybe there's a point there.

Finally, you can't expect us to just accept your last statement. You can't guarantee our lives are in any danger, just as we can't guarantee you that they aren't. I'm particularly concerned about the context in which this threat is being framed. If we are truly in danger, I will fight in our self-defense. However, if we face merely abstract threats and we're proposing to do extreme things to another group of people who we've already beat up on, and never have even come close to understanding, and we haven't tried to do anything to mitigate the threat, which sometimes might involve letting go a little on 'American interests', in the name of justice, and particularly if our government set up and armed the regime that we are proposing to do away with, as happens all the time, then I will have extreme doubts about whether the war should be fought at all and particularly the rush with which it is being brought upon us. Then I will begin to allow my small sphere of influence to combine with other people's small spheres of influence in a pro-peace direction.

TO Trilox and Bush Admirer 12.Oct.2002 03:24

concerned historian


That's a great post! You present some nuggets of truth. It's not the "whole" truth (kind of sweeping with broad brush strokes there, buddy). But neither are my messages the "whole" truth. I recognize that, and I hope you do as well. May I make a suggestion? I think you might have been taking too seriously the flames of others directed toward you (and yeah, some of them were nasty, but you were nasty in some of your posts). As a result (totally understandable), not all of your messages were explaining where you were coming from. Context, after all, is important.

We all have primary responsibility for how our ideas are received; we all have primary responsibility for how we react to others. Although it takes work to explain oneself, especially if one has a "minority" opinion, I contend that it's actually not worth time posting if one doesn't bother to take the time to explain why they feel xy&z.

Trilox, you said in response to my editorial linked below that you were "...going to have to re-think some stuff." That's great. I think we all need to think about what we consider as "truth." I know I've learned a hell of a lot over the years from those on the "right" side of the political perspective. And ironically enough, there are many areas in the last few years where some on the right and left are finding common ground (that's another message by itself). Anyway, I could write more to you, but I'll leave it at this for now.

Bush Admirer,

The only thing you did in response to my editorial


was to attack me personally (and by the way, you totally missed the elements in that editorial that show I'm not a pure leftist; I'm beyond categorization via a mere single editorial, as there are slivers of left, right, center, green, Jeffersonian Revolutionary and more within my worldview, but that's another topic altogether). That was one of many posts you were firing off -- probably over 30 in the last week -- that had nothing at all to do with tackling the arguments of the authors you were addressing. Your messages were often nothing more than flames in which you only focused on the smell of hippies, etc. Calling my editorial "a load of crap" and then attacking my character is a waste of your time (not my time, your time...). You have responsibility to present your ideas (responsibility, meaning the ability to respond, not the duty, but the ability-to-respond).

It would appear that many Portland Indy readers were concluding one of the following:

a) you were simply posting for your own entertainment, watching people get flustered;

b) you were doing "a" and/or believing you were achieving some meaningful political objective by your actions (and many would have different definitions for "meaningful" -- you folks out here realize that, and only Bush Admirer knows...)

I would suggest that "a" is stupid. It will get old for you if that is your motivation. I can't address "b" because that's something you have to reconcile, if relevant.

No one here that is serious (important qualifier - many people are not serious) would attack you personally if you took the time to present your ideas in a true dialog rather than a masturbatory exercise of flaming people for your amusement. I'm sorry, but I have yet to see one example of you having a dialog with someone you consider a leftist, nothing like posting something along the lines of Trilox's message above. I fully admit that you may have posted something substantive that I didn't see. But don't bitch about censorship, discounting it to a collective of hippies ganging up on you (perhaps an unjust caricature of how you may feel, but so be it). Present your ideas without attacking people -- attack ideas you find disagreement with, present your specific counter arguments and perspective. If you do that, you'll suddenly find that very few here, if any, would ever dream of censoring you.

I'm not in favor of censorship. But I recognize that as communities grow, the number of people that don't act from a position of responsibility increases, leading to a social system that has structural stress. That's just the way groups are -- like a law of nature. But you can't escape the fact that if you present ideas and stick to issues (unlike the example of your meaningless post to my editorial linked above), the only people that would be calling for your censorship would be the true whacko FAAAAR left folks. I challenge you to not participate in intellectual masturbation. ARTICULATE, DON'T MASTURBATE. You may very well have something to teach people. Masturbation only provides short-term thrills.

I presented a number of very specific and documented points in that editorial. You're welcome to speak about why any one or more of those points are wrong. But back up your statements with facts and make citations where you can. I will be happy to have a respond and I may even learn something from you. If I have time, I may elect to respond to you. But even if I don't have time, others might respond.

-- concerned historian

Imposter 12.Oct.2002 05:44


"OK OK! thats actually pretty damning article. I am going to have to re-think some stuff."

heh heh, *sigh*... too bad that wasn't me. You will never see me change my mind on Iraq. I don't want to see Iraqi people hurt, I want to see Saddam taken out period...

"Anyway, I'd like to point out that according the CIA, attacking Iraq will most likely provoke an attack on this country, while refraining from war will not."

No, that was according to the Clinton drone George Tenet who should have been replaced...

"In fact, activists seem to be notorious for not having any money when the hat gets passed at fundraisers."

Again you are trying to fool me. I know what activists spend their money on. Basically the same consumer goods that I do.

Reactionism/extremism is the real enemy 12.Oct.2002 10:58


The "Trilox manifesto" includes a few valid points, but it also reveals much about its author's reactionary mindset. The very fact that Trilox chooses to characterize himself/herself as "Right Wing", and to define the remainder of the IMC community as "Liberal Scum" is evidence of some rather deep-seated pathological disturbance that won't be reconciled through reasoned discussion.

Reactionism and extremism are the real enemies of any society, whether its underlying principle be "left" or "right", "socialist" or "capitalist", "religious" or "secular". The tug of war that takes place in seeking to maintain a rational and equitable balance is uncomfortable and often infuriating, but in the long run it is healthy - at least in theory. On average, one could say that the system works, but one could also say that an average temperature of 70 degrees is "comfortable" while disregarding the extreme temperatures of minus 20 degrees and 120 degrees from which that average derives.

The problem in formulating public policy is that human nature inclines us to see everything as black and white, good or bad, and so the pendulum is alternately driven to its opposite political extremes. This situation isn't helped by those who devote their energies to reinforcing and encouraging this great human weakness. The challenge of all societies is to draw from the spectrum of political thought only the best ideas and principles, but the way it seems to work in practice is that our policies and laws reflect only the most extreme positions.

What are the answers? I don't claim to know, and if this makes me guilty of intellectual masturbation then I throw myself on the mercy of the court. All we can do is our best, and I remain convinced the world could be a better place if the nobler parts of human nature were to prevail over mankind's baser instincts.

How do we get there from here? Don't know that either, but what I do know is that every revolution that ever took place ultimately substituted one form of tyranny with another. It's true there is a great deal wrong with this country and that it may be necessary to dismantle before we can rebuild. However, let's not lose sight of the fact that the system envisioned by this country's founders was without question an ingenious solution to the human failings that infect all political systems. The problem is not so much that the system is broken as that it has been perverted to serve interests it was never intended to serve. Let's restore it, and by the way, if that process involves tar and feathers I'll happily lend a hand.

need a reason for being an annoying troll? 12.Oct.2002 11:39

Nancy Sinatra

Growing up in and rebelling from a dysfunctional new age "hippy" commune does not give you the supernatural objectivity, to declare that the people on that the people here or anywhere on IMC follow a ridgid philosophy or lifestyle. NOR does it give you the spectral capabilities to see everyone here fails in their ideals. Take me: I have never owned a car, I dont purchase new clothes made from sweatshops, eat from frito lay or taco bell, I recycle, yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah ...I ALSO have no desire to live in a dysfunctional idealistic hippy commune, dread my hair or be a FUCKING hari krishna. so what? just because YOU THINK people here are a certain way does NOT mean that we should sit back and allow the planet to DIE or our contry become the fuher of the New World Order with our eyes glued to fox news.

your "personal testimony" that you keep repeating doesn't prove anything. It and your persistent trolling DOES however strongly suggest that you have some serious issues regarding your folks and your miserable hopeless life.

AND what are you still doing here anyway? are you trying to prove something? go make up with the failures that are you parents and stop with the trolling. Jeez, just deal with it.

and an FYI:

the people *CAN* change the world but you won't change our minds.

Nice Job Trilox! 12.Oct.2002 16:24

Who Cares

I thought this was, by far, your best piece of writing yet. I don't agree with your commitment to the "right", and your past efforts to berate the "left" seemed kinda pointless and mean spirited, but you raised some good points here that may give some people cause to reflect on their own lifestyles, if they can move beyond defensiveness.

In my opinion, there are lots of folks on the "left" that are as shallow in their ideology as folks that proclaim 'Limbaugh good, Nader bad' with no real substantiation for their view. As an example, I had a friend who was attacked for not using phosphate-free laundry detergeant, but couldn't tell her why (algae blooms, coral bleaching, etc.). I find it to be much more effective to modify my own lifestyle, and provide sound reasoning to those who are curious why/how I have implemented those modifications.

I'll be willing to bet that that NOONE here is 100% green. It is most likely impossible to do in the modern world, and still function. But an individual can make a big difference, by taking as many opportunities as possible to build their own trip into their everyday lives, and share the results with others, when the opportunity arises. I am also confident that some folks here would prefer to lecture others as to their evil ways, rather than setting an example.

I think their are some common goals, as well as enemies here. You might not consider yourself an environmentalist, but it sounds like you haven't gone out of your way to drive as much as possible, in the most inefficient vehicle possible, just to spite those who are. I don't think their are many folks here that consider Saddam to be a good guy. But many of the past U.S. policies have proven disasterous, our leaders have failed to take responsibility for those failures, and our officials continue to repeat them.

But make no mistake, my primary concerns here are not that innocent people will die in the proposed conflict, which they undoubtedly will, or that terrorism will multiply as a result, which it will by definition. My main concern is that the rule of law is disappearing in this country and around the world. The U.S. now has the power to 'disappear' anyone of its choosing, with no due process, and no proof of criminal action. The U.S. has additionally given itself the authority to claim that other countries pose a threat to us, with no proof, and destroy them on a whim, because some clown thinks that they might be a threat at some time in the future. This is in nobody's best interest. There are those who claim that they are not worried because they have nothing to hide. Mistakes are made. Someone that you strongly disagree with will eventually come to power, and with these lapses in the brilliant checks and balances system that was put in place by our framers, the crosshairs may well point in your direction, or the direction of someone that you care for.

I go on and on, so I will end with this: Keep on writing! There is at least one person here who is interested in what you've got to say.

*Trilox* is a LIAR 12.Oct.2002 18:31


"I grew up on a hippie commune."

what a fucking goddamn tankerload of horsehockey.

LOL--this one's old as the epaulets on King Tut's underwear.

how many trollspooks have used this tactic, spamming their "identity" to emotionally appeal in some microscopic fashion to the people they harass?

Know Thy Spook:

I couldn't have said it better myself! 12.Oct.2002 19:00


I have been visiting this web-site for a few weeks now. By far I think your posting is the most well thought out piece. I could not have said it better myself. It is really too bad that these ingnorant spoiled children are allowed to express their opinions without intelligent adult supervision. I hope for world peace also, but lets face it as long as there are evil people that are willing to kill innocent people there is going to have to be someone like the U.S. going in and fucking them up. Until we all can get along, like that will ever happen, there is going to have to be war and death. It is sad but, inevitable.

regime change 13.Oct.2002 11:39


regime change
regime change

And with Holloween just around the corner... 13.Oct.2002 13:45


My thoughts exactly, antitroll!

"Bush Admirer" and "Trilox" seem a little "spooky" to me too.

Ha! Welcome to the forum, ladies!

Which is it? 13.Oct.2002 18:36

Not a centrist either

Trilox, I would've thought that you'd have more to say to the issues I raised in my post. Your single comment causes some confusion for me...

My statement:
In fact, activists seem to be notorious for not having any money when the hat gets passed at fundraisers.

Your comment:
Again you are trying to fool me. I know what activists spend their money on. Basically the same consumer goods that I do.

An earlier statement by you:
...and lived a clean and cheap eco-friendly lifestyle that most of you only dream of.

Which is it? Do you live a clean and cheap lifestyle we can only dream of, or do you buy whatever consumer goods that you think I do? Are you saying that you don't buy any frivolous consumer goods, and then equating that to what I buy, somehow trying to make some point that I have a lot of money and I'm trying to trick you into believing that I don't? Or are you saying you had a eco-friendly lifestyle we can only dream of, but for some reason you threw it away? I really don't know what to make of you Trilox. All I know is that if you start a discussion in this way, you might as well strive to finish it. Otherwise your griping about having your posts censored does nothing. If you have nothing to say and just keep trying to grap the headlines, then you are abusing this site and deserve to have your posts censored.

what i want 14.Oct.2002 01:12


I don't know about anybody else on this site, but the "death" of this "country" is exactly what I want, you lazy, finger-pointing little bitch.

Be careful what you ask for 14.Oct.2002 05:05

Little Bitch's grownup monster

Like I have repeatedly said on this blatantly biased forum, the majority of the Leftist posters are in for a real treat, if real, true "Anarchy" comes about. When you chose your pseudonym, "Anarchy", did you ever ponder the times you have spent around desperate human beings in a real live lawless situation, on a large scale, or did you look at history ? To make it up close and personal, what did you do in the Lunch Hall when a physically superior aggressor stole your lunch and your jacket, back in 4'th grade ?

I thought so.

Unfortunately for you and your ilk, I'm also on YOUR SIDE, in terms of advocating a total shutdown of industry and government. The overpopulation and poor breeding habits of the human race are beginning to show, and it's only getting worse. There was a great post on this site a few weeks back from a Woman who found that her personal struggle with philosophy and conservationism, led her into National Socialism, from her days as an Earth Firster, based purely upon logic. No one bothered to critique it. Same goes for "Industrial Society and it's Future." The Chomskyites will not touch it with a ten-foot-pole. They can't, as the savagely accurate critique is too damning.

Why do I advocate what you play around with, for real ?

Simply, overpopulation, and the breeding habits of the chronically idiotic and violent strains of human animals.

Racist, you might alledge ? Well, duh. Only a white liberal these days has the luxury of pretending that race does not matter or exist; that certian traits of human animals are beyond reproach.

You might mock or laugh at me now, but I swear that you will not be laughing at all when the former slaves you lionize come seeking "Reparations", under the threat of superior force. You see, people are all the same, really. Black, White, La Raza, whatever. Might is Right. And you will be crushed.

But in the meantime, massive overwhelming of the resource base and political instability will play right into me and my associates' hands. Just like always.

As the Manson Family song goes, "In order to harvest the Grain, you have to cut the Wheat."

Nighty night.

For Colonel Kurtz 15.Oct.2002 01:05

Captain Willard

'Out there, it must be temptation to be God. Because there's a conflict in every human heart, between the rational and the irrational, between good and evil, and good does not always triumph. Every man has a breaking point. You and I have. Kurtz has reached his, and obviously he has gone insane.'