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Is it too late??

One last effort to prevent censorship.
The non-censoring way of doing this would be to add a disclaimer in the news article section that would read something like the following:

"IMC allows ideas and opinions to be expressed in an open forum. Anyone and everyone is allowed to post an article (following the 4 guidelines). However; not all posts reflect the opinions and views of the IMC collective. If you see a post that is offensive our recommendation is that you do not respond to it. We here at IMC are committed to the freedom of speech and encourage thoughtful insight and debate. We realize that not all publishers are here for that reason."

Moving voices that are disruptive and opinions that are "different" it is a form of censorship. IMC has obviously already justified this move, but unfortunately they now are operating in the same format as Rush Limbaugh or any other "One Way" host of political commentary.

As an observer who has been following this, in my opinion, it is disappointing. I have found this sight to be enlightening, funny at times, informative and I've been impressed with a lot of writers, even some of the Trolls. Over the last few weeks I have seen people learn about one another, for the better. The Famous Three "Trolls" (and some others) are here to challenge you and I witnessed a few of you who just simply arent equipped to deal with it and you felt compelled to consistently respond. By doing that, you played into their hand. And to those IMC'ers who support the change, it is a little hypocritical, since a lot of you condone putting your "uninvited" messages in front of other people in the streets because you think your message is greater. (ie. blocking traffic was justified because your trying to save the world and after all were driving those damn oil guzzlers) The most effective way to cope is simply to never comment on an article that is obviously posted to get your goat. (pun intended) But some of you couldnt help yourselves....and it gave the "Trolls" a purpose.

Everybody has a voice and I thought that IMC was a place for us to talk to eachother. If your response to this is "well BA was here just to lay personal assaults on us" Just remember that a lot of you responded in kind, which makes you just as guilty. (I saw a lot of IMC'ers telling the trolls to Fuck off and Die.)

So, thats my $.02 worth. I dont expect everyone to agree with my opinion, its just food for thought
An apeal for no censorship 11.Oct.2002 18:36

portlander

I still beleive that the trolls can be "case studies" for us. They come here with the purpose of disrupting our conversations. But what they have to say is what we often get at actions. The "trolls" are people and are obviously ignorant people. Don't write them off just yet- use them as an experiment: let's find out how to break down the ignorance. If we can't deal with a couple of annoying posters- how will be able to deal with all the people of this country who have been kept ignorant on a media diet of corporate news?

Thats a good one... 11.Oct.2002 19:09

Trilox

"The "trolls" are people and are obviously ignorant people."

So just because I don't drive an old oil smoking VW and smoke a gram of pot every week doesn't mean I'm ignorant...

WTF is a troll 11.Oct.2002 20:00

VF

WTF is a troll?

-Against Red Front and Mass Reaction-
Volksfront


volksfront skinheads are always ignorant 11.Oct.2002 20:25

Gringo Stars

Leave it to the "volksfront" skinheads to be consistantly ignorant. Hey skinhead, look it up in a dictionary. Do you have one? I have other words for you to look up but all of them are offensive.

disclaimer - good, hiding - ? 11.Oct.2002 20:48

will l

I too think adding a disclaimer at the top of the site is a good idea. That allows the moranic posters to continue doing their thing while folks who may be new to the site are clued in about the disruptive nonsense that is overwhelming many of the posts.

That said, I really enjoy getting back to more actual substantive stories without all the absolute CRAP that a relative few were flinging about. They added, for the most part, only disruptive and often ulgy content to the fray. I guess in the end I'm not sure how I feel about hiding the posts that offend.

A gram of pot? 11.Oct.2002 22:16

Lamet Vali

Hey Trilox, who the fuck smokes a gram of pot? That's like maybe two bowls. Study your metric conversions dumbshit. I, the fucking true patriot Lamet Vali burn through a gram of bud before I even get out of bed in the morning. I bet Dick "Dick" Cheney burns a gram a week.

this is not a site for talk 11.Oct.2002 22:24

someone

My take on this is that this censorship is not based on what people find offensive. I was never offended by what was posted regardless of viewpoint. I do agree that it was becoming disruptive and non-productive. As one who took time to respond to the trolls repeatedly without ever getting a response I think it is time for a change. All views are welcome but this is *not* a discussion board. There are plenty of sites to hold discussions. This is an independent news site. Yes, it offeres the ability to post comments on stories but it it not well suited for discussion. Again, there are plenty of sites to do that. For those of us that use this as a news source (one of many) it is nice to see the number of posts on the front page drop. I have suggested before and will again that there be some division between news and commentary/editorials/opinion pieces. That raises just as many questions but might be something to look into.

In any case, people love to throw the word censorship around but I don't think it's quite accurate in this case. No one is being prevented from posting. No one is being prevented from reading those posts. The site is merely trying to accomodate the increased postings recently by making a distinction between spam/flaimbait and legitimate stories. How do you decide which is which? Well, that will be the tough question. To me, the central point was that these individuals posted several stories without ever responding to criticism. They were not trying to educate us, the were trying to drown out the real news, news which is already drowned out everywhere else. I wish I could believe their motives were to engage in discussion. There's nothing I would have welcomed more, but I haven't seen any indication that that is what they wanted. So, enough is enough, moving their posts doesn't censor them, it just makes it easier for those of us that want news to get it. BTW, I don't think this is an issue of content. There have been those with progressive viewpoints that have posted a ton of stuff without ever replying. I hope that they will find themselves in the same category. The beliefs aren't important, the manner with which you conduct yourself on this site does.

nothing's set yet 11.Oct.2002 22:52

pdx indy activist

everything is experimental at this point. after editorial folks meet this weekend, more will be clear. the community response is the guiding force in this discussion.

reply 11.Oct.2002 23:59

deva

<<<The non-censoring way of doing this would be to add a disclaimer in the news article section that would read something like the following:

"IMC allows ideas and opinions to be expressed in an open forum. Anyone and everyone is allowed to post an article (following the 4 guidelines). However; not all posts reflect the opinions and views of the IMC collective. If you see a post that is offensive our recommendation is that you do not respond to it. We here at IMC are committed to the freedom of speech and encourage thoughtful insight and debate. We realize that not all publishers are here for that reason.">>>>


You are somewhat mistaken. All the content on the newswire is the sole responsibility of the person posting. Left, right, radical, christian, anarchist, democrat, republican, libertarian or whatever other label you might place upon yourself.

Some of the people contributing to editorial share views with libertarians, and right wingers on some issues. The imc group has quite a wide range of views.

So no posts reflect the views of the imc collective.



<<<Moving voices that are disruptive and opinions that are "different" it is a form of censorship. IMC has obviously already justified this move, but unfortunately they now are operating in the same format as Rush Limbaugh or any other "One Way" host of political commentary.>>>



You are naming two different things. Moving voices that are disruptive is not censorship. It is housecleaning that prevents censorship. If the newswire is allowed to devolve into meaningless, immature posts, it effectively censors it.

We will not allow that. "Die you hippie freaks" is not a meaningful communication.

Opinions that are different are not cause for being dumped into the compost bin. (which is still a temporary experiment and no decision has been made to keep it yet)

There is alot of immature posting and it is not all by 'right wingers' or 'conservatives' (hard to define terms anyway). Immature and needlessly rude or insulting posts create a negative climate and it easily escalates until the basic fabric and focus of the newswire is threatened.

There is something for all of us as a community to learn here. We can all learn to be more disciplined and focused on the important work for which this site is a resource.

Shouting back "Fuck you you right wing asshole" is no more productive than the comment it is in response to. We all have work to do in the world, and we have to ask ourselves all throughout the day, are we doing it, or are we distracted.

As far as i am concerned, both comments are destructive, and are equally deserving of being hidden - i have some republican friends, and they would be offended at how their views are represented by some spammers on this site, and would agree that some posts need to be hidden.

People of 'conflicting' views, need to show some basic respect. They are like guests here. If they walk in being rude and insulting, they are then abusing the openness here. If someone with very different views comes to my house and we have a conversation, that is fine, even if we disagree, but if they start trashing my place, out they go. It is unlikely that the mothers of the spammers would approve of their immature and purposefully disruptive actions. If over time an individual demonstrates a willingness to engage in fruitful dialog, then they are earning the right to post here, but repeated garbage posts will get less patience.

The liberal mindset can be frustrating the way it is fixated on perfect ideology, and can lose sight of practical reality and in doing so disempower itself. These ideas of perfect 'free speech', perfect 'openness' are illusory constructs that avoid the reality of life. Even with some spam posts going in the bin, this is still one of the most open places you will find, and that is enough as we seek a balance between these issues.

deva

I applaud the editors on this one... 12.Oct.2002 00:01

was close to becoming a former reader/poster

I thought this site was getting too busy before bushlover and co started really disrupting stuff.

Keep throwing the trash in the compost heap!!

It seems like more people appreciate this move then those complaining about "censorship".

Please announce if it necessary to show up in person to vote to support this move some time, otherwise I vote here: compost the trolls!

To the person who values trolls ... 12.Oct.2002 01:00

D. Lila

as case studies on which to hone anti-heckler armor (because, if you think you're going to have an intelligent conversation with those idiots, think again ... they don't respond to anything but 30 second mass produced drivel) ... feel free to visit the trolls on the troll page. You'll get all the practice you could ever want.

hey gringo stars 12.Oct.2002 21:13

SKINHEAD AND PROUD

Gringo Stars, your the one who should do some research, Volksfront aren't skinheads, and no real skinhead would ever be part of Volksfront. Volksfront are a separatist (racist)group. Skinheads are a non racist subculture who despise these neo nazis for stealing their identity.

Sorry if you're a SHARP 13.Oct.2002 05:46

GRINGO STARS

Sorry, Skinhead, if you are a SHARP. I still hate the so-called volksfront, and hate all racists. If you are a Skin-Head Against Racial Preludice, my apologies.

Someday, I hope all of the street tribes and gangs join the fight against oppression.

Down with the Demopublican/TV/professional pundit mafia!

bah 13.Oct.2002 08:03

VF

you aren't a skinhead, your wannabe rude-boy in skinhead clothing, it's who who have the wrong identity motherfucker, we were skinheads in this town while you were still shitting your diapers. What , did you read the faggot ass book by Nick Knight and know yer an expert? HAHA

Trilox 13.Oct.2002 22:39

jim-bob

Trilox, when will you get it through your head that few of us likely drive VW's (A: There aren't a whole lot of them in Portland, and B: I am aquainted with many people who regularly post to IMC and few of them even drive at all.), not many of us smoke much pot, if any, and if they do, then what business is it of yours? I personally haven't smoked pot in a long, long time, and don't plan to anytime soon. The ideas represented on this site come from people of all types. A person still has the capacity to reason and give a shit about the world even when stoned. Nobody said that you have to smoke pot or drive in order to not be termed ignorant. That is your own assumption. I wonder if it is a deliberate assumption. You point out hypocracy in people's lives earlier on, saying that if someone protests old-growth logging and lives in a wood house, then they are a hypocrite, or if someone wipes their ass with toilet paper, then they are a hypocrit, etc... Well, that's the standard and typical argument you get from anyone just trying to play devil's advocate with the issues. Yes, everyone is going to have a certain amount of hypocracy in their lifestyle, but getting people to stop doing it bit by bit is a step in the right direction. By your arguments, we shouldn't worry at all about anything because there's no way to stop supporting any and all bad things in your life, so don't try to even proceed in a progressive way or you'll be guilty of hypocracy which (according to you) is worse than anything else... I believe that this is very silly and disempowering. You must lead a very miserable life, trying to avoid hypocracy at every turn until you're afraid to do anything other than be cynical and criticize everyone and everything that is moving, until you're afraid to even move at all.
I don't expect you to argue against any of these points I've made. I expect that (If you make any response at all) you will simply call me and everyone else here names, make some nonsensical argument that doesn't hold any water, and then vanish until you get another opportunity to yell at somebody and run away again. That's OK. I feel your pain. But I just want you to know that you can always talk to me. I'll always be here for you. Because that's what IMC is all about: Caring about and helping your neighbor (that's kinda what gnu is all about, too...funny how anarchy seems to always boil down to that...).