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Is Portland Indy Media an Anarchist hate site?

So, you say that the Portland Indy Media is not an anarchist controlled hate site. I would disagree. It would seem to be
run and controlled by anarchist individuals. Not scum, not human trash, but individuals who seem to share a common
hate for authority figures, and anybody who disagrees with them. Not to mention property owning citizens. Anarchists
are human beings. Our fellow citizens. Anarchy...well...you draw your own conclusions. Notice that I consider them
individuals, worthy, and not a group which I can paint with the wide brush they themselves seem to paint with.
So, you say that the Portland Indy Media is not an anarchist controlled hate site. I would disagree. It would seem to be
run and controlled by anarchist individuals. Not scum, not human trash, but individuals who seem to share a common
hate for authority figures, and anybody who disagrees with them. Not to mention property owning citizens. Anarchists
are human beings. Our fellow citizens. Anarchy...well...you draw your own conclusions. Notice that I consider them
individuals, worthy, and not a group which I can paint with the wide brush they themselves seem to paint with.

I believe, because I have seen it with my own eyes, that the Portland Indy crew are fostering and allowing crimes to be
committed on Indy Media, thus threatening the whole medium for those of us who are not anarchy inclined. They seem
to foster and plan the demise of innocent groups with threats of death. Their main target being cops. A group. Those who
operate the site often wade in with their own diatribe whenever someone disagrees with their anarchy manifesto.
This seems to be coming from the people in the office as well as
outside.

The crimes being committed are the planning of attacks on police officers and peaceful demonstrators in the process.
They allow the publishing of manuals showing anarchist how to destroy the property of others. They use Portland Indy
media to plan and advertise attacks on a group of people. They use Portland Indy media to call for the death of those
within the cop group. They commit crimes on this site.

If they were threatening any other group in such a manner, that group would be well within their rights to hold the crew
at Portland Indy Media responsible, and seek relief in court, as well as compensation for damages. I believe that crimes
have been committed here against innocent people. The crimes of planning a hate group attack against a group of citizens
within our country. But, not being a lawyer, I am not certain if my premise is correct. Therefore, I will leave it open for
debate.

What follows is the story, told by a young anarchist about a confrontation he started with what he calls a pig. This human
being, this cop, was driving to an emergency situation with his siren on, thus angering the young anarchist. I have taken the
liberty to repost his story, with a few subtle changes to give the reader a feel for the hate and anger, detached from the
actual victim. I do so to frame the debate. To read the actual story, go to:
 http://portland.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=21893&group=webcast

I believe these anarchist human beings threaten to destroy Indy Media, just as they do our peaceful demonstrations.
But let the debate begin. Pleas read on.

*****At approximately 2:45 AM on September 20th, 2002, I was walking around the corner to the
Plaid Pantry next to my home. I heard a Jew patrol car coming up the street with
sirens blaring and lights flashing. I was angered by this because Jews in our city routinely use
their sirens for no apparent reason other than to relieve boredom while en route to a call. This
is completely inappropriate at 2:45 in the morning, when most people are trying to sleep. On
numerous occasions my sleep has been interrupted by this problem. As of late, the Jews
presence late at night seems to have risen considerably in my neighborhood, and I believe that
it is nonsense, considering the fact that every time I see somebody pulled over on the road at
this time of night there are at least four Jew cars, usually more, on the scene. This is
unnecessary, and the manner in which they conduct their business is becoming a nuisance in
my neighborhood. Because of this, and because I am a free and autonomous individual who
wishes to exercise his 1st amendment right of free expression whenever the opportunity to do
so may present itself, I chose to "flip off" the Jew car as it sped past. After doing so, I continued
into the Plaid Pantry. I walked inside and waited at the counter for the cashier to get back (I
believe she was in the back room stocking the cooler when I walked in). As I stood there, I saw
what I assume to be the same Jew car pull in to the parking lot from the opposite direction in
which it had been originally headed (I assume that when the Jew saw me flip him off, he
flipped a U-turn and came back). The Jew got out of the car, and entered the store. He walked
up to me saying "Hey, dude, what's with the finger?" at this point he grabs my arm "Let's take a
walk outside." I immediately order him to release my arm and ask him if I am being detained.
He says yes, and lets go of my arm as we get outside the doors of the building (he had been pulling me alonguntil this point).
At this point, he says that yes, he is detaining me because he suspects that I may be publicly intoxicated.
I inform him that I am not intoxicated, and ask if I am free to go. He says no, and asks for my ID.
I tell him that I do not believe I have any ID at the time and he interrupts me by saying that he will
"haul me in to detox if I don't have anything to prove who I am." Idecide to give him my identification,
and ask him why, if he was in such a hurry to get where he was going that he felt the need to blast his sirens
at 2:45 in the morning, did he feel he had time to stop and fuck with me. He says "well, you're my priority now.
" I ask him "why is that?" he answers "because you flipped me off." (At this point another Jew has pulled up, exited his
vehicle, and is standing behind me and to my left, about 8-10 feet away) I ask him if that is a
crime, and he does not respond. I then ask him if this is a Jew issue, or if it is his own
personal issue. He replies, "It's a little of both." I then inform him that if that is the case,
then he is abusing his powers as a Jew. He tells me that he is concerned that I may be publicly
intoxicated. I ask him to give me a sobriety or beatholyzer (not sure of the spelling there) test,
and he refuses, saying, "No, you're not driving, so I'm not gonna do that. During this
conversation he is reading my name and DOB into his radio, I assume that he is doing a
standard check to see if I am wanted for anything, etc... At no point during this entire situation
does the Jew make any real attempt to determine whether or not I am under the influence of
any type of substance, even though his stated purpose for detaining me was that he suspected
me of being intoxicated. The check apparently comes up with no results, and he is forced to
release me. His parting words are the most chilling "Well, the next time I see you, I'm gonna jam
you up." I asked for his name and badge number as he was walking away (in the heat of the
moment I forgot to get them while he was standing in front of me, I know: stupid me) and he
refused. I asked for this information repeatedly as he walked around his car and entered it, and
he refused/ignored my request. I am completely pissed off by this, and so I flip him off again, and
say "fuck you, you Jew cocksucker" very loudly while proudly displaying my middle finger to him
inches away from the passenger side window of his patrol car. He looks at me, and then looks
away as he pulls off, leaving behind his "backup" in the other car. I flipped that guy off, too. He
looked at me, and then looked away and left.
The moral of this story: Fuck the Jews. I was "safe", because I had witnesses (the Plaid Pantry
clerk and some customer who was in the store at the time). Other people aren't so lucky, and
get beat down and thrown in jail. This Jew has issues, and I hope I don't see him again when I'm
alone, because I'll probably get fucked up. But he had better hope he has back up, because if
he tries fucking with me on his own, then we'll just see who gets "jammed up". I'm not a violent
person. I've never been in a real fight in my life, and I have participated in several nonviolent
demos/actions in the past. But I have never been more ready to defend myself in my life than
the night some Jew told me that he was going to jam me up, whatever that means. ANYWAY,
before I get too far off track, let me just say that if any of you ever have any altercations with
Jews, learn from my mistake: GET THE NAME AND BADGE NUMBER. This Jew insinuated a
physical threat to me in front of witnesses, and I just bet that that was the reason neither he nor his
partner did anything when I flipped them off as they were leaving. If they had, and I had
gotten their info, then I could probably pursue them in court.*****

address: address: Oregon Back Woods

the answer is 23.Sep.2002 10:50

required, but can be anonymous or made up

No.

You are mistaken 23.Sep.2002 10:58

Anonymous

You are mistaken

you sir/mademoiselle are an idiot 23.Sep.2002 12:00

dizazt0r::blank1t

 http://www.canada.com/vancouver/story.asp?id={1377D976-2B4C-4D6B-8AAD-F22F8EDE6D5F}

'Notice that I consider them individuals, worthy, and not a group which I can paint with the wide brush they themselves seem to paint with.

...The crimes being committed are the planning of attacks on police officers and peaceful demonstrators in the process.
They allow the publishing of manuals showing anarchist how to destroy the property of others. They use Portland Indy
media to plan and advertise attacks on a group of people. They use Portland Indy media to call for the death of those
within the cop group. They commit crimes on this site.'

--when you type 'they', do you mean they the INDIVIDUALS or they the AGGREGATE?

this is an interesting article cuz do ya'll 'member when $eattle and Ohio Valley IMCs were being bothered by the feds/FBI for their server logs because of an incident supposedly occurrent in Canada?

 http://www.indymedia.org/fbi/

--well it seems that this article would be 'insinuating' that certain crimes (that people have in fact been booked for, otherwise you can't call 'em crimes) committed are linked to 'activity' centered around IMC. it might be a decent idea for the author of the article i'm responding to to remember that there is still--until the office of homeland insanity says there ain't--freedom of expression and speech, though to a certain degree. IMC has sufficient "rules" which govern publication.

 http://portland.indymedia.org/publish.php3

i'll be a little harsh here. in making such allegations on the wire, you defeat the purpose of 1) the newswire itself and 2) the meetings of the relevant IMC collective members.

 http://portland.indymedia.org/about.php3#edpolicy

you idiot, present this ludicrous argument at the next possible scheduled meeting and proceed from there. (i call your presentation ludicrous because you apparently fail to realize that PEOPLE CAN THINK AND ACT FOR THEMSELVES. censorship is dumb; promotion of indy-pendent/dynamic/(neigh, 'good') thinking not dumb (IMO). if one reads a comment that says "you should kill a police officer today", should they do this? or maybe they can determine for themselves that killing is wrong?).

i would hope your silly ass would jump on the wire as a dissenting voice when people start advocating the torture of "middle-eastern looking people", or maybe when they start hanging blacks again. would you go that far?

you moron. (sorry for being mean, i'm just a bit upset).

i hate ignorance 23.Sep.2002 12:09

Livid rafmusstard@hotmail.com

To start i would just like to address some of the questions and opinions that Tsalagi has stated in his posts. Ok.

^^^^^You are filled with hate, more so than any KKK red neck I've ever encountered. You paint with the same brush as the KKK. The hate brush. The klan gathers in hate groups to bash the Blacks, the Natives, the Jews. You do the exact same thing, only you target a much larger audience. All of us, short of your own kind. If there is no victim in sight, you will travel 500 miles to a peaceful demonstration and turn the entire citizenry into you victims with your violent acting out. You cause the police to armor up and go after all of us, out of fear. Police respond to the citizens fear. That's part of their job. You are the biggest enemy of progressive change that us activists face here in America and world wide^^^^

Wow. Yeah this is a bunch of bullshit. Im not blaming you for not understanding anarchism because the corporate media has constantly challenged any intelligent discussion of anarchism. They cant. For the simple fact that people would begin to understand that anarchism is not hate. Anarchism itself is the idea that people are better then government. It isnt the idea that all people who are not anarchists are wrong or bad or immoral or any of those things. Anarchism at its core is basically small group consenses, small group democracy, forms of socialism anything the anarchist group wants to decide on/wants to work with. When you say that he is filled with hate because he is an anarchist makes me think that either you know very little to no anarchists and that most of your information comes from the very thing that anarchists are fighting against. The basic capitalist system ie. The fucking mass media which it seems that you get all your information from.
Long breathe.

The flipping the bird thing. What the fuck? doesnt the 1st amendmant cover this. "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech...." what does that mean? he has the right to say Fuck off or flip the bird which is basically the same thing/message, to whoever he wants to. Yes of course there will be reprecussions. Im not stupid. But if we begin to explore why the police are even around its is yes to serve and protect but its also there first duty and utmost most important duty to protect are constitution. Which includes that 1st ammendmant. Was the cop in the right to fuck with him as a person? yes of course. The kid was being a jack ass. But as a police officer who needs to uphold the constitution, did he have the right to fuck with him? NO.

By the way. My short spiel on anarchism. Entirely to short. If your really concerned about it and do not want to seem ignorant. Just simply type "Anarchism" at www.google.com you will get a host of anarhist faq sites that do not spread hate and do not approve of the Anarchism = Chaos and hate and that bs.


Oh yeah i remember what else i was going to say.


At the bush protest. You mentioned something in your ranting and hate talk that i found interesting. You said and i quote "You act out violently at peaceful demonstrations, and give the evil bastards all the tools they need to paint the movement as fringe kooks. All they have to do is show news reels of you acting out, and the people then paint us all as kooks, and turn their heads when our babies are pepper sprayed. The blame of which rests more on your shoulders than any authority figure. You work over time to create these situations, and put the movement back by 100 years. You completely discredit the millions of decent, mature citizens who want better lives for our worlds citizens. You are the enemy of progressive change, and it looks like we the citizens are going to be forced to deal with you, before we can deal with the powers that be. You wont have it any other way" what an interesting idea. When i was at the bush protest i was part of the black bloc. Which if you dont know is an anarchist movement in protests. (find more info at google just type in black bloc go there if you want to know more i dont want to explain it) When we were there we moved back the police line a couple blocks. Then stopped then dispersed when a message on high said "Lets move back its a tactic used during the black bloc" then was passed around the bloc. We had the entire protest behind us and someone decided for the entire thing...completly against what anarhcism and the bloc stood for.... to turn around. enough rambling. We turned around everyone took off are mask and we went to a late lunch early dinner at food not bombs. I was still interested in the protest and came back later on to hear stories of a baby getting sprayed and old men getting sprayed. whatever...the thing is, is that most of the anarchists werent even there when people got sprayed.

Of course your right when you said " The blame of which rests more on your shoulders than any authority figure." Wow when i read that i think damn your right. It was clearly the anarchist presense 15 blocks away , that was eating dinner, that made the police spray the baby and the rest of the protest. It was practically the anarchists that sprayed the crowd hense more blame on us.

MOving on. Ok read most of the rest of your comment again. Like this in order.

Blah blah blah. Falsities about anarchists. Random blame on things like chemical imbalance. Btw i happen to not need medication nor am i phsically or mentally unsound. i got a phsical about 3 months ago and not by a shaman or anything like that but my a regular western phsician. God why do i continue to write. Go to google to learn more on anarchism. check out black bloc sites.

Then come back and yell some more ignorant hate when you dont read the sites.


Peace,
Livid

ps: probably forgot something. Likewise probably sounded incoherant. But hey i havent eaten for awhile. so who cares.


I put this in the other post. iT might not make sense in context here but if you read the other post that he linked to it will be fine. Just wanted to post here cus the other thread is hella long.

Logic? 23.Sep.2002 12:18

try again

Equating a group of people with no connection to each other other than their will to serve as agents of a body of people in control of our country with an ethnic group of people who have been oppressed for millenia is not what I would consider sound logic. Perhaps what you should try is inserting the term "slave master" instead of "jew" and see how it sounds. I am not neccessarily saying the cops are slavemasters (although many would like to debate that I'm sure), but merely trying to make a point. Perhaps your patriotism will allow us to accept being defiant toward the slave masters against whom we fought (and killed) during the the Civil War (yes I know that's arguable). I mean slavemasters were people to. So were confederate soldiers. So were the Nazis. They were people to. Just subbing one group of people for another in that post doesn't give your argument any weight.

I'm no anarchist 23.Sep.2002 12:26

No-Doz Bukowski

The fact is that the majority of the people who post to this site, as well as the majority of people who are critical in general of the major media and the government/corporate power structure that controls it, would not define themselves as anarchists. Your post shows a typical failure to think logically, and a typically skewed and subjective viewpoint.

You define "anarchists" as those who "share a common hate for authority figures, and anybody who disagrees with them." Well, that's not anarchism. Anarchism, in the formal poli-sci definition, is a form of pure democracy that relies on living in small, self-sustaining communal groups within the larger society. Within these groups, there would be no leaders or elected representatives, but rather officers with certain responsibilities whose policy would be dictated by an equal vote amongst all members of said community. That's "Anarchism", as envisioned by Mikhail Bakunin and championed by the turn-of-the-century Anarchist movement in the U.S.

"Anarchy" as envisioned by the political punk movement of the late 70s and 80s (and beyond) is less-strictly defined. What those who define themselves by this vision of anarchy share in common is the opinion that all structures of authority are inherently negative, and that no form of governmental control can ever be instituted without compromising the essential rights of the individual. The more level-headed proponents of this movement recognize that their goal is not one which can be achieved. Rather, they strive to exist as a counter-point to the ubiquitous philosophy and worldview of obedience and conformity that they see as damaging to the human race.

These two classifications do not represent unified movements, in the way that "Libertarianism" or "The Green Party" do. Traditional Anarchism and the modern punk take on Anarchy are both general ways of thinking that are shared by many individuals who don't agree on other philosophies and strategies. Some anarchists advocate violence, some do not. Some anarchists advocate non-violent demonstrations, some do not. Some anarchists advocate the destruction of property, some do not.

So that's one problem with your argument. I don't know the political leanings of the organizers of Indymedia, because I don't go to meetings or become involved with internal politics; but I have seen no evidence of a strong anarchistic bent here. There is ample representation from all sides of the Opposition (opposition, that is, to that political/corporate power block that presently has much of the world in a stranglehold), and even a considerable contribution from those who disagree with that Opposition. If those people get shouted down from time to time, it's only natural. Just as I would get shouted down if I were to walk into any bar or lunchroom in town and start trying to convince everyone that the Bush administration was complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

Another problem lies in your analysis of the Giving A Cop The Finger story.

This kid is no anarchist. Why do you assume that he is? Because he doesn't like cops? I don't like cops, and I'm not really an anarchist. Do you like cops?

The thing is, we have a right to give each other the finger. A lot of people posted saying that the cop should have "kicked the shit out of him" and so on, because that's what anyone would do if they were flipped off. Do you know what would happen then? If I were to flip you off, and you were to hit me for it? I would be within my rights to call the police, whose duty would be to come down and arrest you for assault. I have the right to free speech, which means I can flip off everyone I meet and still be free from consequence. Anyone who reacts by physically attacking me would be subject to arrest and prosecution. This would include grabbing me by the arm and dragging me outside, which is what the cop did to the kid with the finger. The cop committed assault. One is not legally permitted to grab, push or pull one's fellow citizens, regardless of what they say or imply through gesticulation.

Furthermore, police have a special responsibility to uphold laws and regulations that apply only to them. One such regulation is that they are not permitted to run their sirens in non-emergency situations. Clearly, this cop was not on the way to any pressing emergency, because he turned around and spent a good portion of time harassing the finger kid. Another is that they cannot detain a suspect without probable cause, which he certainly did not have. Giving the finger is not sufficient evidence to suggest public intoxication. Another is that they cannot make physical threats to any citizen, even those who are in fact guilty of a crime. The cops threat to "jam him up" amounts to intimidation, which is not allowed.

I have a third complaint about your so-called reasonable argument. You accuse Indymedia of supporting threats of violence against the police. I have read a few posts, especially just before and after the 8/22 protest, in which anonymous posters said things along the lines of, "Any cop who tries to mess with me will get a boot in his face." I have seen various articles and posts with lines like, "The only way to achieve our goals is through violent overthrow of the government."

The first could be seen as a threat of violence, though it would be difficult to figure out who one should prosecute and who exactly is in danger. The second is a philosophical statement, and we're allowed to make those. We're allowed to think what we want to, and say what we want to. This country was built on the violent overthrow of an oppressive government. Nonetheless, whenever such posts arise, there is inevitably a vocal response from more level-headed and experienced activists such as myself; cautioning that violent overthrow of the government is an unrealistic and irresponsible goal. In this forum, all ideas are open for discussion. I am happy for the chance to give counsel to younger and more hot-headed radicals who might otherwise do something rash that could endanger the movement. The fact that the bulk of anarch protesters at 8/22 used chalk rather than ink and paint to write their messages on walls and sidewalks is only one recent example of the Indymedia community at large helping to focus the energy of our youngest and most enthusiastic brothers and sisters on a task that achieves their goals without compromising ours.

You, Mr. Tsalagi, may or may not be sincere in your intentions. This site has certainly become the focus of a concerted movement to discredit Indymedia and the people behind it, and your arguments seem to be in line with that effort. If you are truly one of us (The People, that is, not The Anarchists), then I hope that you are able to review and consider your limited viewpoint to more properly embrace the truth of what is going on today in Indymedia.

Indymedia is NOT a hate site.

Indymedia is NOT an anarchist site.

Indymedia is NOT (as has recently been implied) a white supremacist or anti-semitic site.

Indymedia is the voice of the people.

Indymedia is a place where any man, woman or child can open his or her opinions to public scrutiny and debate; and where people united by their distrust for the major media can congregate and share our resources toward uncovering the truth.

How can you be against that?

5000. - N.

umm.... 23.Sep.2002 14:45

Livid

When i said my stuff about anarchism is was directed to the targ guys who thought that all anarchists were people who were hatefull and all that. I was trying to give a version of anarchism that was contary to his beliefs. thats the entire point of anarchy is that its whatever people want it to be. So saying anarchism is one thing or another doesnt make any sense but if you said anarchism means this to me then it would make sense.
Whatever.

Also when i talked about the finger thing i never said that he was an anarchist. Read what i said.
Peace.
Livid

clarification 23.Sep.2002 14:52

Livid

btw i dont even know if that was directed to wards me but whatever.

But you do paint with a broad brush 23.Sep.2002 17:57

A Fellow Tsalagi

I have many anarchist friends who are not haters. I have many acquaintances who post to Indymedia who are not haters. I know some of the people who run Indymedia, and they are not haters. You paint with the broad brush, in the same way you believe other do. The police and the political establishment have much to be criticized for. If you are really Native American you know this. There are many who are angry and have hatred towards the cops, and although I don't support this, I understand it.

Your quarrel is perhaps with Indymedia's policy of not censoring posts. But please don't paint with a broad brush those you do not know.

Wast of bandwith 24.Sep.2002 11:00

Snaggs

One thing: If you don't like Indy, go to some pro-govt., pro-war, pro-cop, web-site and save us your vomit. You see the anarcist revolt as "violent hate", but fail to realize that hateing those that would inslave or inprison you is not hate at all but intelligence. You don't really care, do you? All you wanna do is drive spinters into the movement and foster divisions. Go love a cop or a polition or a tank or something, but quit with the junk posts.

There are none so blind as those who will not see!