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actions & protests | human & civil rights | police / legal a22: bush protest

From the father of the pepper-sprayed children

This is an open letter describing our experience and an urgent call to action.
First and foremost I want to thank from the bottom of my heart the kind humanbeings who helped my children, my wife and me after we were pepper sprayed by the Portland Police. We were aided immediately by fellow demonstrators, the black cross and passers-by caught in the crossfire. These people shielded us with their bodies and soothed us with their treatments and words, and argued with police, putting themselves in danger, to secure our safe passage through the cordon. Their actions stand in beautiful contrast to the savage inhumanity of the police.

We brought our children to a peaceful protest, we stayed in the back and we were walking on the sidewalk. The march stopped at the intersection of 2nd and Alder we could not see why from our position on the SW corner of the intersection. Police quickly moved up behind us and a moment or two later sprayed pepper spray into the crowd from the NE corner of the intersection. the crowd ran toward us to escape the spray. We asked the oficer closest to us how we should exit the intersection. He pointed and said to exit to the NE, into the spraying police opposite him. as the crowd pressed toward us I yelled to him to let us through (south on 2nd) because we had three small children. He looked at me, and drew out his can from his hip and sprayed directly at me. I was at an angle to him and the spray hit my right eye and our three year-old who I was holding in my right arm. In the same motion he turned the can on my wife who was holding our 10 month old baby and doused both of their heads entirely from a distance of less than 3 feet. my six year old daughter was holding my left hand and was not hit directly. We ended up on the sidewalk a few feet down alder with fellow protesters holding my screaming children and and pouring water on our eyes. Someone yelled that the police had said that we could pass through the cordon on alder with the children. I picked up the baby and other protesters brought my wife and other children to the police line. We attempted to pass through but they leaned in shoulders to block us. I yelled at them to let us pass for about two minutes and finally some officer up the line nodded me and the baby through. they were not going to let my wife and other children out but after a few minutes of pleading from the crowd and another signal from up the line they let them out. As we passed the officers were laughing and said something to the effect of "thats why you shouldn't bring kids to protests".

I immediatly called 911 as we moved up to the corner of 3rd and alder. I explained that a baby had been directly pepper sprayed and that I needed an ambulance. They informed me that they would not send one and that all protesters were to report to a first aid tent on the other side of the police lines. Fellow protestors aided us until Black Cross arrived. Business people brought water from the nearby offices and someone bought some juice for the children. Two KBOO staffers drove up in their Volvo and took us to Emmanuel ER. One of the protestors who had helped us from the beginning accompanied us to the hospital and waited with us until the kids were admitted (special thanks!). The children were examined for rhespritory problems and chemical burns. Luckily all were only suffering "normal" pepper spray reactions that have no treatment but to wait. The Pediatrician kept us a little longer so that she could call poison control to check for other recomended procedures as she had never in her career seen an infant pepper spray victim.

On the way to the E.R. my three year old said that those guys back there were trying to get us and said we should call the police.

That is the story.

We need the help of every person who was at the corner of 2nd and Alder and witnessed, photographed, or made video of any of this. even if you are unable to testify later we need facts written down (location of police, names of officers, timelines, everything). we will keep it anon if you request. Two leads so far: the first officer on the line across the south side of 2nd was tagged as "Costello" the one who sprayed us would have been one, two or three to his right ( our left) also there was a very large african-american officer with a shotgun wrapped in yellow tape and wearing a yellow and black shell holder across his chest. He was in some capacity giving orders. a name would be great. Please help us expose this extreme, un-democratic, and brutal attack on peaceful citizens.

Email info to  a22brutality@attbi.com

Thank you again to all the wonderfull people who helped us. All power to the people!

Donald Joughin

Photos 24.Aug.2002 22:13


i am so sorry 25.Aug.2002 00:02

peaceful protestor

thank you for sharing your heart wrenching story. it is unbelievable to me that the cop would directly spray you and your family - I am rendered speechless and feel sickened. keep telling your story, everyone needs to hear it.

thank you 25.Aug.2002 00:31


I know you must be busy with the children so thank you for taking the time and energy to work on this. If you can post news of a protest of the abuse or if/when you'll be out again, I'd appreciate it. My family will be there.

My child and I would have been standing right beside you if we hadn't been out of town that day. We have to make sure that everyone--voters, tax payers, and everyone in power--knows about this.

Back to the 60's 25.Aug.2002 06:39


People need to wake up. The U.S. government is going back in time. (I'm not some anti government extremist). They are using the current terrorist war to bring us back to the 50's and 60's when the police and government would respond to peaceful protests with extreme violence and take away our privacy and civil rights.
I know some cops and the comments I've heard them make have made me sick. They don't consider the protesters as human beings, they're trained to look at all of them as "the enemy", men, women and children. These idiots don't realize that they're being used by large corporations for they're own gain.
Yes, there are occassionally some people at protests who cause trouble, but those are few. Why not respond to them and not to children. How could any grown man spray pepper spray into a childs eyes? It's part of their training. They're angry because they can't do anythng about real criminals so they go after those who can't defend themselves.

I *almost* brought my kids too! 25.Aug.2002 08:05


I stayed home during the protests because I didn't want to leave my children ('tweenies) home alone and I didn't want to bring them with me downtown into a situation that I believed to be unpredictable, as any situation with Portland Police and a crowd of any size is inherently unpredictable. Sometimes the police stand by and watch quietly, sometimes the police fly completely off the handle and do their best to start a riot. You never know.

I've been paying attention for years, and was concerned about my kids' safety, as well as my own ability to escape if I had to simultaneously be concerned about my children. So I stayed home, despite assurances from many friends that this would be a peaceful protest and that Portland police had learned their lesson in the fallout from the May Day melee in 2000.

I do not point all this out to berate the parents who did feel safe bringing their children to the protest, but rather to point out that it was only my extreme paranoia that prevented me from doing the same thing. This was a peaceful protest! The "parent" chiding and insulting this man above is wrong! There was no reasonable reason to not make this a family event. There was no rational reason to expect that what happened would happen. To imply that this family deserved what it got by virtue of its own stupidity, is coarse, harsh, and feeding into the hardened, inhumane arguments of the right wing. Even if bringing children was not the best judgement call, to say that their presence made them a legitimate target is reprehensible in the extreme, and does not succeed in excusing the behavior of the Portland stormtroopers.

- 42 -

911 Rejection Needs to be Examined!! 25.Aug.2002 08:52


911 can NOT tell protestors to get 'taken care of' at the scene - even that doctor admitted she had never seen a child so small get sprayed and so wanted to keep a watch. That shows that the 911 operator could not have known the exact safety of that child and put your family at risk by rejecting you.

Was Black Cross coordinating with 911 and local hospitals? If not, problem - 911 can't just tell people to go elsewhere.

I also was listening to the police scanner and they were saying that they hoped people would just get help at their local hospitals - come on! If the cops, 911, and the hospitals are NOT COORDINATED we've got a big problem!

Please someone follow up on this - we can't have protestors getting rejected by 911 operators. That implies that people at protests don't desrve medical treatment because of the event they are at. That's insane. Do hospitals not send ambulances to sports stadiums if there are riots? Or to any other large events with potential for harm??

Concerned Parents 25.Aug.2002 09:12

Another Parent

The account of the event with the police and this parent seems to be designed to elicit emotions against the police. Having not been there it's hard for me to accurately assess the actions of anyone who was. Putting myself in place of some of these officers, I can see how emotions run high and things you don't intend to happen, take place. In most cases, I am willing to bet the police officers involved with this type of action would probably rather be somewhere else. This parent did choose to be there. With his children. I mean no personal disrespect but....What - is he stupid? Does he not have television or read newspapers? Does he not know how many of these events unfold? Is this type of event the proper place to bring someone so young? I recognize he has the right to do so. He also has to bear the responsibility of his actions when he does. Personally, pitting myself against a fully dressed, combat ready police force does not seem smart. Using the results of my actions to incite more emotions keeps the 'us and them' mentality going.

It does seem to me that people should not bring their young children to the front lines of any protest - allegedly peaceful or not. When I see the pictures of the father and his child, it occurs to me that the father, not the police, allowed this to happen. This would be akin to taking your child to watch a lava flow. We know it's not really safe. My daughter has never been sprayed with pepper spray. I would never put her in a circumstance where this could happen. Especially at such a young age where she would have no idea what was going on and would have no intelligent contribution to make to the event. If she chooses to go when she's old enough to make that choice, she has that right.

Having said that, I am not defending the actions of the police. As I said, I was not there. I do, however, read the paper and see the television accounts of these events. Because of that I recognize the power and force the police have and use in these situations. That well-known fact alone would be enough for me to know I may not be completely safe there - let alone my young children. As a parent, my job is to care for my children and keep them harm's way. That is my responsibility.

I am truly sorry about what happened with this child. The parents need to be more responsible and keep their children out of harm's way - no matter what it takes to accomplish that. In this context, children don't have the 'right' to be there to protest. They are, by definition, not protesting. Quite simply, they are too young. If anything, the kids would be protesting their parents' actions. Parents have responsibilities that are greater than their right to civil expression. As far as I am concerned, one should act on your child's rights first and your right to protest second.

In the meantime, the police should answer for their responsibilities too.

Sue the bastards! 25.Aug.2002 09:14


Please sue the City of Portland. Everyone who can, please provide information to  a22brutality@attbi.com. It is also true that the emergency system, 911, acted contrary to the law in refusing to help. This case is worth a fortune. I am sure every plaintiff's attorney in Portland will be glad to take this case. Children have a right, and in my opinion, a duty, to attend demonstrations. I have been attending demonstrations since the day I was born, over 50 years ago, and never experienced police brutality. Demonstrations are a First Amendment activity; that is we have a right to freedom of assembly, free speech and a right to petition for redress of grievances. This is not a return to the 1950s and 1960s; it is an advance to fascism. Pepper spray is potentially lethal at close range and there is no reason for any police department to have any pepper spray whatsoever. This is the latest horror perpetrated by Nazi USA.

Parent's Responsbilities - one opinion 25.Aug.2002 09:25

Concerned Parents

The account of the event with the police and this parent seems to be designed to elicit emotions against the police. Having not been there it's hard for me to accurately assess the actions of anyone who was. Putting myself in place of some of these officers, I can see how emotions run high and things you don't intend to happen, take place. I doubt that most officers would make a target of a child. In most cases, I am willing to bet the police officers involved with this type of action would probably rather be somewhere else. This parent did choose to be there. With his children. Does he not have television or read newspapers? Does he not know how many of these events unfold? Is this type of event the proper place to bring someone so young? I recognize he has the right to do so. He also has to bear the responsibility of his actions when he does. Personally, pitting myself against a fully dressed, combat ready police force does not seem smart. Using the results of my actions to incite more emotions keeps the 'us and them' mentality going.

It does seem to me that people should not bring their young children to the front lines of any protest - allegedly peaceful or not. When I see the pictures of the father and his child, it occurs to me that the father, not the police, allowed this to happen. This would be akin to taking your child to watch a lava flow. We know it's not really safe. My daughter has never been sprayed with pepper spray. I would never put her in a circumstance where this could happen. Especially at such a young age where she would have no idea what was going on and would have no intelligent contribution to make to the event. If she chooses to go when she's old enough to make that choice, she has that right.

Having said that, I am not defending the actions of the police. As I said, I was not there. I do, however, read the paper and see the television accounts of these events. Because of that I recognize the power and force the police have and use in these situations. That well-known fact alone would be enough for me to know I may not be completely safe there - let alone my young children. As a parent, my job is to care for my children and keep them harm's way. That is my responsibility.

I am truly sorry about what happened with this child. The parents need to be more responsible and keep their children out of harm's way - no matter what it takes to accomplish that. In this context, children don't have the 'right' to be there to protest. They are, by definition, not protesting. Quite simply, they are too young. If anything, the kids would be protesting their parents' actions. Parents have responsibilities that are greater than their right to civil expression. As far as I am concerned, one should act on your child's rights first and your right to protest second.

In the meantime, the police should answer for their responsibilities too.

Please 25.Aug.2002 10:03


Read The Constitution. In it American citizens are guaranteed free speech, the right to assemble, and the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. Our government and those who are paid out of the pockets of the people are here to PROTECT and DEFEND the citizens of the U.S., not to harm and suppress them. At my next protest, I will be bringing a copy of The Constitution in order to remind the police of our rights.

Only right-wing, anti-American facist nazi's have a problem with dissenting opinions. Well thought-out dissenting opinions are one thing--anyone has a right to disagree with the message of the protestors, but what we get from the right is mindless stupidity, ditto-speak, attack and hate-filled slurs.

Some on the right say the protest movement is dying. I say this is only the beginning as there is a vast silent majority out there waiting to take to the streets and show the elitist, facist regime in D.C. we will not tolerate the subversion of our basic human rights.

The larger picture, please 25.Aug.2002 11:33

Ken Aldrich aldri7@earthlink.net

I feel symapthetic towards the children who were pepper sprayed, but I also concur with those asking why young children were brought to the protest. I don't believe the Portland police are generally brutal, unhuman, "Rambo" males who enjoy causing suffering. And I also know that at least some protesters at these events specifically go because they enjoy taunting and swearing at police. Of course, I'm not refering to the family in question here - they just got caught in the crossfire unfortunately.

Which brings me to my main point, and that is that all of this distracts from the main issues which involve Bush and the curtailment of civil liberties etc. What should follow from a day of protest is a discussion of these issues on this website rather than what the police did or didn't do. So its unfortunate that the big picture keeps getting obscured. Nowhere in the above post is any mention made of Bush and Co. The man gets away scot free while the police take the brunt of our anger. So I'm angry too in a sense because I see this happening all the time. Who's the bigger villain - the police or those in the White House? Bush's presidency is fostering increased violence all over the world. Now it has been brought home to us exactly what we are up against. So prepare yourself for some rough times ahead, stay focused on the main issues and leave the kids at home next time.

Ken, your privilege is showing 25.Aug.2002 11:47


How shall I leave my kids at home? They're not old enough to stay alone and I can't afford a babysitter. Or were you only talking to those parents able to AFFORD to protest? If that's a Constitutional amendment, I missed it: the right to gather and protest...if you can afford to take the day off, hire a babysitter, and are able-bodied.
Stop blaming the victims and turn your energy on what went WRONG and what we're going to do about it.

Gosh, 25.Aug.2002 12:16

here's an Idea

We should just have disabled and parents with small children in the front lines.

Some seriously stupid posts here 25.Aug.2002 12:42

a parent too

There are some seriously stupid posts here.

For example, from 'another parent'"Personally, pitting myself against a fully dressed, combat ready police force does not seem smart"

You are a manipulative asshole - the father did not 'pit' himself against anybody

" It does seem to me that people should not bring their young children to the front lines of any protest - allegedly peaceful or not"

The father stated quite clearly he was nowhere near the front line - again you are being a manipulative asshole

" Having said that, I am not defending the actions of the police. As I said, I was not there. I do, however, read the paper and see the television accounts of these events. Because of that I recognize the power and force the police have and use in these situations"

You most certainly are defending the actions of the police. Because you read the paper and watch the TV you are brainwashed. You were not there, so you do not know anything about it, but the lies that were told on the TV. You have no basis for the bullshit you are spewing here.

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to blame the father for the brutal violence of the cops. You disgust me. The cops knowingly attacked, and without good reason, a family with small children.

You lack of concern for people's fundamental rights being so crudely violated shows you to be a callous and brainwashed idiot. Your words mean nothing. WAKE UP!

typical responses from priviledged people 25.Aug.2002 12:44

fed up with priviledge

You people who are trying to blame the victim make me sick!


Typical response from priviledged white people - Side with the power structure, and blame the victim

You need a spankin!

What is the real issue here? 25.Aug.2002 13:01


One of the tactics of the Powers that Be are to divide the dissenters so as to disempower the strength of our movement. The people united will never be defeated. Debating about whether or not it is safe to bring your children to a protest is wasting time on one of the symptoms of the disease rather than focusing on the disease itself. Our energies should instead be focused on the fact that it isn't safe to bring our children to protest. We need to bring this questionn to the mainstream - who in fact are the police protecting? Obviously not the public. An incident such as this needs to be capitalized on (excuse the term) because it highlights the extreme contradictions in our capitalist society - spraying a ten-month old and three year old is maintaining the peace. If we can't stop arguing about who is a responsible parent and who is not rather then fact that a protest in a "free" country should never reach that point to begin with, how do we expect the everyday CNN watching person to go beyond the republican-or-democrat paradigm to question the ultimate goal of the imperialistic structure of our capitalist government?
Lets use our intelligence and passion and energies to reveal the real issue - what causes one human being in a uniform feel it is right to cause harm to the citizens that they are supposed to serve and protect, regardless of their age or vulnerability, and share this debate with the growing number of fencesitters.
Lets not let them divide us all.

Re: GOSH and Monica.... 25.Aug.2002 13:22

Ken Aldrich aldri7@earthlink.net

The people in the front lines should be fully knowledgable about the dangers and risks associated with street protests. When cops show up wearing full riot gear, a little light bulb should go off in your head saying "they are not going to a picnic". I'm not blaming the family in question here, because, if I recall, they weren't at the front lines. But lets not put vulnerable people in front just so that we can blame cops for attacking innocents. Put yourself at risk instead. Be prepared to accept the consequences that you know from experience might occur. Then when they occur, you can have the satisfaction of knowing that you sacrificed yourself so that your message could be heard. But those children could never have that satifaction because they were too young to know what was happening. For that reason, I questioned why they were there in the first place. If you can't hire a baby sitter, at least be aware that you are putting them at some risk, and try to restrain yourself from labeling cops as "baby attackers" which will only inflame them further and make future violence more likely

Blaming the victim is cruel 25.Aug.2002 13:41

Liberate the kids

Hey Concerned Parent:
Blaming the victim makes you an asshole. Yes protests sometimes escalate into riots. Yes, I'm sure the parent knew this. Protest organizers had specifically put out a communique stating that there would be a "Family Zone", so people were encouraged to bring their kids. No, it's not wise to have kids near the front line. That still doesn't change the fact that the copper conciously made the decision to do what he did.
Look, the bottom line is this: the police knowingly pepper sprayed a little kid. That cop has eyes. He saw had to look at the kid to aim to his pepper spray. Even if you're such a freedom-loathing individual so as to think that it's ok for the police to physically attack crowds of people, there's simply no excuse for not taking a second actually look and see who you're firing chemical weapons at.
Protests are not always safe. Neither is driving a car. Nobody ever scolds parents for putting their kids in cars, even though cars are really goddamn dangerous and kill kids all the time.
Your post seems awfully apologetic about police behavior. You make all kinds excuses for the ones who wielded the pepper spray (they were scared, they didn't mean it) and then place the blame on the person who got pepper spray. Your statement saying the police should be responsible for their actions seems like an afterthought. You seem to think that: it was all a big mistake, the police aren't really that bad, we just need to stop thinking it's "us versus them" and make friends with the cops. Put flowers in their gun barrels, it'll make everything better. YOU ARE IDENTIFYING WITH AND ENABLING YOUR OPPRESSORS. You seem to think it's insane to resist the police state when it's in reality it's insane not to (if we don't resist it, it'll only get worse and worse).
Did it ever occur to you that the original post "elicits emotions against the police" because the police are psychotic nazi pigs? That there can be no dialouge with people who use force to take what they want?
Do you live in a neighborhood where the police only come when you call them? Are you white and financially secure? I'm guess the answers are yes, because if you lived somewhere like, say, Northeast where police terrorism is a part of everyday life then you wouldn't be saying such stupid things, and siding with the people who use armed force to defend your privelege at other's expense.
Which side are you on?

This is the real issue! 25.Aug.2002 13:56


Police brutality certainly is a real issue. When an instance so egregious as this one is captured on film and witnessed by hundreds, we definitely need to make a lot of noise about it. These situations give us a precious opportunity to expose the brutal system for what it is and show the people of this country who the real terrorists are. This is not a distraction, it is the real issue!

Police Assault on Citizens 25.Aug.2002 15:16

Bhodidharma thenewbhodidharma@yahoo.com

In a land where our freedom of speech, assembly, and liberty are supposed to be the most protected of our freedoms, we have those freedoms most often tread upon by those paid to protect them. Acts like this pepper spraying of a peaceful protest group are why the Police can't feel safe. They know that there are few out here who have not had their rights violated by the police at one time or another. They respond with fear to a crowd because they can't see who will attack them. They attack the weakest persons they can because they are truly cowards. If they were to attack anyone formidable they just might get hurt. Their tactics are self defeating but they fail to see that. These children who were attacked will grow up distrusting and possibly hating police as a result of their abuse. If one day one of these children should strike down a policeman that would be karma. That it is karma will not spare the child from facing the direst of consequences. There in lies the problem. The police are not held accountable for their actions. A police officer or any Government official that violates one of the laws he has sworn an oath to uphold should be held to the strictest penalty allowed. Not only have they commited a crime, but in so doing have violated their oath and the commision of their office that we, the people, have been paying them in good faith to keep. When an officer is slain we are supposed to feel bad for them. Why? When Osama bin laden attacked the US, our Government Attacked the people of Affghanistan. Did we feel bad for killing the Taliban? NO. They reaped what they sowed. If the police officers who are worth a damn would arrest and weed out the abusive and corrupt within their ranks instead of covering up for them they would notice they have nothing to fear from the public. Until they police themselves there are no "good" cops. They all know who amongst them are the Corrupt and abusive, to let them remain on the force makes them accomplices, and thereby equally guilty. I would weep no more for a slain officer than a slain mullah.

Who polices the police? 25.Aug.2002 16:12

bulletinman bulletinman@hotmail.com

Just who is minding the store? If they sprayed my 10 month old daughter I would have to fight back with everything I had. I will defend my family with deadly force if the need arises. Amerika is on the verge of a police state. These terrorist must be held accountable.


I am disgusted 25.Aug.2002 16:29

Ani animare@excite.com

I am so sorry to hear about what happened to your baby. I am disgusted to know that I live in a country where our police feel it's okay to assault peaceful protests.

As, for all of the victim blaming going on here.. Wow. Yuck. Have you all forgotten that Martin Luther Kind felt that children had a central place in the civil rights movement? Children marched, children resisted, and sadly children died. Martin Luther King believed that children had rights and a soul that needed to be taught about resistance as a form of spiritual teaching.

Blessings to your family,

What is the issue is here 25.Aug.2002 16:46


The parents, Good or bad, right or wrong in bring their children to a peaceful march is NOT the issue. So far, but just barely it's still a free country. I can't imagine how guilty the parents must feel after this sickening display and the grossly abusive acts by the Portland police dept. aimed directly at their innocent children. In hindsight I'm sure they wish they left the kids at home and maybe next time they will. I'm sure Mom and Dad are beating themselves up far worse than anyone else could. Again THE ISSUE IS the blatant abuse by the police to it's own citizens!

IMHO anybody that refuses to focus on the stated facts and blame the victims should re-examine their priorities and compassion levels. The fact is the PPD DELIBERATLY AND INTENTIONALY AND WITH MALICE PEPPER SPRAYED A 10 MONTH OLD BABY IN THE FACE. Assuming the cop(s) are fully capable of cognitive, sane and rational thinking, then their actions become and are totally INTENTIONAL & UN-EXCUSABLE. PERIOD! If this cruel and sick event does not anger and enrage you or at the very least make one feel some compassion for that baby, then maybe you should ask yourself 'What WILL it take?' WHAT?

Perhaps this will be the "vehicle" we've needed to finally bring to light what's really going on in the USA. I can't see how even the corporate media can ignore this.

Could you ever in your wildest nightmares have thought it possible that police anywhere in the United States of AMERICA at anytime, would intentionally target, take aim and then pepper spray babies and children in their faces? From three feet away? I never thought so. Think about that!
My heartfelt best wishes go out to this AMERICAN FAMILY.

Canadian Father 25.Aug.2002 17:03

Tom Krundle

I am a Father of two and have brouhgt my family to maney protests in Canada. Mostly in Victoria and Calgary. Victoria happens to be the most scoially active city in western Canada. Our police help us by stopping traffic and making sure the way is clear as we march to the parliament building. Once at the parliament we are met by no berricads, no riot clad police and no pepper sprey.

Sounds kind of dull, I know . As we chant and call for social justice the parliament building does nothing, sometimes we wish there was someone to here are call. We never make the news, until we held a rally of over 50,000 people. It just so happend that the fire department and the police were part of that rally. Guess what, no violence and every body brouhgt there kids.

Now, sounds to me like your living in a fascist state, where protest is met with pepper sprey and rubber bullets. The only time I have seen these kind of actions by the police, in my country, is when there is a WTO Meeting or Bush comes for a visit. Seems to me these are deliberate tactics to scare you from legitimate protest(Non Violent). Sounds like its working, You have people like "concerned parents" cowering in her home reading and watching TV as it spuse out its latest so called report on reality. My advice to here is turn the TV off, and take a look outside. What you will see are people fighting for your rights. In the future the people that went to the front lines to fight for true freedom will be seen for what they are..heros. The courage to step out of the masses and raise a decenting voice for freedom, truth, and real justice, against the rising tid of oppresion, shall be haild as one of the greatest deeds mankind has seen since the civil rights movement.

You need to step out and step up for your time is running out. Can you drink the water and know it is truly safe. Can you breath the air and say it is fresh. Can you eat the food without thinking it is contaminated. Are the clothes on your back made fairly, or are they made by children. How old are those nuclear reactors getting? Are they safe? Oh yeah, you have the biggest and most expensive millitary complex in the world, tell me, do you feel safe?

Cops, steroids and rage 25.Aug.2002 18:23


Cops are known to abuse steroids and HGH in order to get an "edge" on the criminal element.

One of the more obvious side effects is a marked shortening of temper -- the infamous "'roid rage" we often hear about.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear the cop who pepper-sprayed a non-violent protester and his children was in fact in the throes of 'roid rage.

(Oh, yes: Steroids kill you if you take them long enough.)

So sorry for your experience with the police 25.Aug.2002 18:46


I really feel for you and your children. You had every right to bring your children to a peaceful protest. No doubt you believed that as a citizen of the once great country, you would be allowed to peacefully express your opinion.

Our country needs people to speak out for peace, civil rights, tolerance, and the environment. I applaud your courage but I am not surprised at the reaction you encountered from the police.

I grew up during the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. Unfortunately, I witnessed and experienced what you and your family went through. I have seen college students and other protesters dragged into the bushes and beat within an inch of their lives by policemen with tape over their badge numbers.

Waking up to what is really happening can be cruel.

Ignorant troll 25.Aug.2002 19:00


Ignore the troll who blames the victim. His accusations against "typical liberals" are nothing but projections of his own insecurities and limitations.

Opportunity to tell your story on the Radio 25.Aug.2002 19:42

Joe Jackson joejacksonlive@yahoo.com

I am sadden but sit here with rage as I browse through the pictures of an apparent police state. I am extending you the opportunity to be on my radio show. I am Joe Jackson, Utah's only Liberal talk radio host. My show is early morning drivetime, 5-7am mountain time...4-6am pacific. It would be an honor for me to have Don and his family as well as any of you who found the need to express your constitutional right to protest. I would like you to tell the seemingly forever sleeping sheep in Utah who apparently remove themselves from the rest of the world, your story. We need to wake this country up and you have taken the first step. I have guests scheduled all week, but I will bump them all if any of you would like to come on air and give us a first hand account.

Just respond by email and I will get right back to you to  confirm.......joejacksonlive@yahoo.com...................
KTKK, K Talk 630AM, Salt Lake City, Utah.

I thank all of you for standing up to what has become a serious threat to our freedoms.

Keep the faith, you are to be commended. We should be celebrating you!!

Joe Jackson

Who asked the child? 25.Aug.2002 20:01


Seems to me the child didn't have a choice in whether to be there or not.

better question 25.Aug.2002 20:38


Who gave the order or authority for the Police Officer to fire chemical weapons on women and children?

Typical conservative 25.Aug.2002 23:40

Liberate the kids (FascistsRScum)

Hey LibsRScum, do you beat your kids? Do you believe that violence is always the correct way to deal with "uppity" people? Have you ever really experienced the emotion known as "compassion"? Ever? Were you abused as a child yourself? Why do you think its wrong to blame the state for actions carried out by the state? You've got some issues buddy, and the sooner you honestly deal with them the happier you and everyone who has to interact with you will be.

Also, I just want to say that upon re-reading Concerned Parent's post, this statement really stuck out: "Using the results of my actions to incite MORE EMOTIONS (emphasis added) keeps the 'us and them' mentality going"
Do you have problems expressing emotions? Do you think that there's something wrong with expressing emotions? Does the thought of letting yourself get really upset scare you? Are you currently taking any pharmacutical anti-depressants? Do you think that suppressing emotions is a healthy way of being?

We live in a culture of permitted violence and coercion directed toward children. I don't have any domestic violence statistics to quote off the top of my head, but I know for a fact that child abuse is VERY widespread. It (domestic violence) probably increased in frequency after Sept 11, considering how much neurosis came to the surface in this country in all the other arenas of social life: ie denial-based flag waving, racist attacks on Arabs, public consent for increased state repression, increased affinity with vicious, cruel father figures, be it the Judeo-Christian's vengeful God (as in "God Bless America") who maketh us to worship implements of torture and execution(the cross) or George Bush (who is, according to the apocalyptic fundamentalist cosmology that he himself promulgates, taking orders from God). The patriarchal nuclear family, religious instituions, and the school system use violence and authoritarianism to suppress the child's innate curiosity, creativity, playfulness, and sexuality. Those who resist are punished. Child abuse lies at the root of the psychological rigidity and character armoring that leads to boys growing up to be more willing to go to a foriegn country and kill total strangers (or pepper spray babies) than to kiss another boy. What happened on the streets on Thursday is just an extreme manifestion of what happens every day in homes across Amerikkka. Wilhelm Reich had his books burned in nazi germany (which he was forced to flee) and in the u.s. (where he died in prison) for pointing these sorts of things out. I suggest that you read them, concerned parent and LibsRScum, if you have any interest in really understanding what's going on around you. I dare you, even if it's just for the sake of being able to better refute my arguments. "listen, little man" and "The Mass Psychology of Fascism" are both very good. Derrick Jensen's "A Language Older than Words" and "A culture of make-believe" are also highly recommended.
One more thing, concerned parent: hiding from or justifying tyranny will not make it go away. Resistance is a process through which we reclaim the power and joy that have been stolen from us. I was on the streets last Thursday and despite all the police violence I witnessed, I feel less afraid now, because we collectively confronted the state's seemingly monolithic authority and exposed it for the shallow fraud that it is. Just like the big scary fiery talking head in the Wizard of Oz, it really is just a timid, frightened little man (or little men actually, and a few little women) behind the curtain.

kids do belong at protests 25.Aug.2002 23:51


Kids do belong at protests, with the GOP screwin our schools so bad it needs to be shown that kids will not tolerate the terrible lack of education dollars. I am 14 and I would like to thank you for bring your kids to the protest. Protests shouldnt be limited to 20-30 year olds, anyone and everyone has a reason should come.

kids do belong at protests 25.Aug.2002 23:51


Kids do belong at protests, with the GOP screwin our schools so bad it needs to be shown that kids will not tolerate the terrible lack of education dollars. I am 14 and I would like to thank you for bring your kids to the protest. Protests shouldnt be limited to 20-30 year olds, anyone and everyone has a reason should come.

We Should Remember 26.Aug.2002 00:31


We should remember that our government has deliberately targeted and killed millions of children worldwide since WW2, so it should really not be a surprise that the "security forces" of the elite follow the same policy here. If the children were mine, the cop's action would constitue an immediate declaration of war and would have suffered the consequences for his actions. I know that sentiment is not what many here would like to read, but we are now engaged in a "low-intensity war" for our rights as citizens (and actually have been for a long time now).

The parents and all the demonstrators attacked by the PPD need to file Criminal charges against those responsible for the police riot instead of civil lawsuits that seek monetary damages because any monies rewarded are ultimately paid by those same assaulted citizens through their taxes and don't result in the purging of the PPD that is so clearly needed.

Furthermore, a well written, detailed account of the whole action should be submitted to the Oregonian (which apparantly has no clue nor had any reporter present), Commondreams.org, The Nation, and other "progressive" publications to provide a counterweight to the corporate media's blatant faslifications of the event, and this account should be cross-posted to every Indymedia site worldwide.

In many respects, the action in Portland has the potential to be seen as the opening salvo in the campaign to destroy the Bu$h regime, delegitimize the corporate media and usurp the elite which both serve.

Second time in 3 years 26.Aug.2002 07:40

Sharon riordanks@earthlink.net

This is the second time in three years that I have witnessed these atrocities from the State of Washington, since moving home in 1999.
After living in Malaysia for several years, and witnessing the water cannons control the masses of people who were demonstrating there against the PM., I could not wait to return "Home".
I see the same thing happening here, and I am horrified.
Tell me why the city of Portland Oregon can gather so many individuals willing to risk their lives for a right cause, and the rest of us just sit in dumbfounded amazement?
A nation paralyzed with fear and disbelief?
Children sprayed with pepper spray, rubber bullets?
What next?
Is it????

Message from UK 26.Aug.2002 07:41

Rupert Herries rherries@hotmail.com

My nephue forwarded the info and photo's regarding the recent anti Bush demontrations in USA. I am mystified that something like this can happen, yet over here we do not get to hear any thing about it! Many people in the UK have the impression that most American people are going along with all the terrifying policies of the present administration. If these recent riots were more widely known about over here it would strengthen the argument held by the majority of British people against Blair's support of this Bush regime.These demonstrators have given me a lift..over here we are feeling helpless and deeply worried.

Niven's Laws 26.Aug.2002 08:57


1a) Never throw shit at an armed man.
1b) Never stand next to someone who is throwing shit at an armed man.


d. crinnion ninlil2@yahoo.com

we must all fight for the right of peaceful protest.. we can not sit by silent while the police become nazi thugs.. evidently we can not expect these men who hide in battle form and face hidden to behave as human beings.. they have lost all decency,,,,

Peace cops Suck! 26.Aug.2002 10:59


Peace cops you suck! Next time I see you bossing some parent around, helping the cops arrest militants, screaming repeat after me, or otherwise bieng a dominant pig I'm gonna call you on it. People Need to do what they believe is right. If you got a problem with them outline it. But if you believe that Anarchists are gonna let you or csd take thier kids for expressing dissent your dead wrong.

Kids would be safe if cops weren't there 26.Aug.2002 12:42

river city girl

After reading those who align themselves with cops who pepperspray small children, it is easy to see that they are the ones engaging in the 'blame the victim' game.

It's scary how blind and so deep in denial some people are about police brutality and misconduct that even when children and babies are victims, they stick their heads deeper in the sand, and repeat the mantra, the kids had no right to be there, and the cops were right to feel threatened by babies enough to use force against them.

If this father wants to hold people esp. those in government accountable for what they did to his children, more power to him. If someone did that to my kids, you better believe I would do what it took to hold those accountable who hurt my child.

Police not thinking this through 26.Aug.2002 13:25

Tony pdxbikerboy@hotmail.com

It seems that the cops aren't quite thinking this through. If they were really concerned with maintaining order, then they should encourage people to bring their children. The more children at these protests, the less likely the crowd will be to act out (which really wasn't even the case this time).

The more dangerous the cops make these protests, then the more likely they are to be populated by younger, more fiery protesters with nothing to lose. These tactics will only make these events worse.

As to the the "parent" who wrote the "Duh" response. This world is not a spectator sport and this is allegedly a participatory democracy. Caring about this world and society, and learning to speak out about it is something that must be passed on to future generations. As to date there is no interactive CD where kids can learn about democracy from the comfort of their own homes.

Should parents wait til their kids are 18? And then only strong stocky kids? Take only boys? Who wins here?

If we all responded to these events by seeking safety, then we would handing the reins over to the cops. Do we surrender the streets when someone gets mugged? Then why should it matter when it's the cops doing the mugging?

To the parents I say thank you for taking part.

Think about who joins the police 26.Aug.2002 14:28

Mike tv315@aol.com

Think about who becomes a cop. In general, dumb guys who think pushing people around makes them worthwhile human beings.. They're poorly educated, think with their muscles, and get off on power. Arguing with a cop is about as useful as arguing with a rock.

There are some good cops, but it's safe to say that in general, the police deparment attacts the worst kind of people to its ranks. Too often, the only difference between a cop and a criminal thug is the uniform and badge.

So that's it then? 26.Aug.2002 15:13

Bout Time

We've fallen to the 'watch what you say - watch where you go - watch what you do' Fascist state? From what I've seen of videos/photos on the protest, this was a peaceful pascifist protest; something still very legal in this country. I'm in NYC and sice I saw this in my morning email & info traul, it has consumed me with the same feeling I had on 9/11/01. Only thing diffrent: I feel a blood lust whenever I see a child harmed.
I still wear my buzzcut from the military portion of my life, am a dyed in the wool capitalist, and wanted to vote for John McCain before the Bush cabal stole the nomination from him, so voted Gore as the next best thing....so this show it's clearly not a Hippie issue, or a parent issue, but an American issue of military force being used on the citizen population; that it was the children and elderly amplifies the transgression.
American aren't cattle; stop acting like it!

Pepper Spray 26.Aug.2002 15:27

J in Orlando jahreha@webtv.net

I participated in a Anti Cheney demonstration in Orlando over a week ago...when he was here for the fundraiser for FEney for congress. Although we had a permit to demonstrate...we were made to go FAR Away from where Cheney would enter the building...rather than get arrested...we complied...and never got to demonstrate...but actually it WORKED in our favor...as after HE LEFT...with all those BODY GUARDS...and SECRET SERVICE and SHARP SHOOTERS>>>we approached the front of the HOTEL where the fundraiser was...and all the TV cameras and reporters....and lo and behold...we were then INTERVIEWED by all the PRESS....by that time...there were only THREE OF US left ....and we GAVE OUR STORY TO THE PRESS>..consiquently.......CHEney got 30 seconds on TV yaking about his great? candidate...WE WERE ON TV...THE CONTINUOUS 24 HOUR NEWS ALL THE TIME CHANNEL...ALL DAY LONG...WE HAD A BIGGER IMPACT BY COMPLIING WITH THE POLICE....AND GETTING FULL PRESS COVERAGE OF OUR VIEWS...OUR SIGNS...ETC...SO ALTHOUGH WE DIDNT BOTHER CHENEY...WE SURE GOT THE MESSAGE OUT...SOMe of my signs said....9/11...you KNEW.....Nov 2000 THE STOLEN ELECTION....Bush + CHENEy + GREED + OIL = WAR ALSO.......ECONOMY DOWN...ECOLOGY DOWN...UNEMPLOYMENT UP FEBERAL DEBT UP...using arrows to denote the up and down....afterward...many of the Orlando police said THAnks ...Keep demonstrating...we are on your side...so....be careful....but realize....the press and police can be on your side....because AFTER BUsh or Cheney LEAVE the premises...you will be interviewed....and you CAN GET THE WORD OUT>>.Oh another thing...many people driving passed us...gave us the finger and yelled obsenities...but there were MANY MORE WHO CHEERED US AND GAVE US THUMBS UP...DEMONSTRATE...BUT BE CAREFUL...BUT BELIEVE ME...the Press will be on your side...IF YOU CAN GET TO THEM>>>AFTER THE OPPRESSORS LEAVE

In response to those who cry " bad parents!" 26.Aug.2002 15:57


To all those who have blamed the victims in this case: shame on you! Citizens have a right to attend public events. If a left wing group attacked an American Legion parade and pepper sprayed small children in attendance, would you say that the parents of the small children were at fault? If they were at a soccer game that got out of hand and the police responded by pepper spraying a crowd at random, would you suggest that they had no business being there?

We're with you - TIME TO FIGHT 26.Aug.2002 16:29

William W. livinginthepast@mindspring.com

I am so sorry about what happened to you and your family. This is absolutely outrageous. Doing this to an adult is one thing, but to harm a baby and children? I am angry beyond words. What? Did the baby and children provide a security risk for that AWOL, spoiled rich boy coward GEORGE W BUSH?

We all need to come together and bring down the BUSH CRIME FAMILY FASCISTS who promote and validate this kind of response to dissent.


We're with you - TIME TO FIGHT 26.Aug.2002 16:42

William W. livinginthepast@mindspring.com

I am so sorry about what happened to you and your family. This is absolutely outrageous. Doing this to an adult is one thing, but to harm a baby and children? I am angry beyond words. What? Did the baby and children provide a security risk for that AWOL, spoiled rich boy coward GEORGE W BUSH?

We all need to come together and bring down the BUSH CRIME FAMILY FASCISTS who promote and validate this kind of response to dissent.


To posters saying "Don't bring kids to protes 26.Aug.2002 17:02

Michael Sosnick

I wish to say this to the people who are putting forth the posts that people shouldn't bring their kids to a protest.

I agree. I mean, how many times do you hear of the militant anti-choicers' kids getting hit with pepper spray? If they ever were, you would bet that those people would be screaming bloody murder at the top of the so-called "liberal press"'s lungs. Yet, they put their kids on the front lines every time, and the kid has no idea what mommy and daddy are doing.

Pro-choicers do not order pepper-spraying of children, and most pro-choicers probably choose life anyway. The point is that there still is a choice.

THE POLICE 26.Aug.2002 17:02


That story is unbelievable but yet it is true. I first heard about the protest from my local public radio station and a went on the web to read more. Well, being the conditioned pawn that I can be i went to CNN.com which gave no mention to the pepper spray incident but did say some pepper spray was used to "Calm" the angry crowd. All i can say is: GEE ISNT IT GREAT TO LIVE IN AMERIKKKA.
peace be with you fellow comrades

Well, how about that? 26.Aug.2002 17:28


Since every other major protest since the moron-n-thief has taken over has been tightly controlled and isolated by the police and the secret service, how can anyone really blame the parents for not knowing that it was going to evolve into a rubber bullet pepperspray slugfest?

The police should take extra caution in making sure that nobody is hurt, man, woman or child while exercising their constitutional rights. Afterall, are we just really supposed to sit in our homes until things calm down? You know, right afterall martial law is fully implemented and the constitution suspended.

Good for you! 26.Aug.2002 17:43


I commend you for bringing your children along to the protest. Regardless of age it is important to teach your young ones what it means to live in a democracy and that it is VERY crucial to exercise their rights. It will only serve to make them strong, educated and outspoken individuals later on in life. For those of you who feel it necessary to complain about Donalds parenting skills, I think that perhaps you should worry about your own inadequacies before you tell someone how to teach their children about the world around them. It is not your decision to make. It is rather unfortunate that their children got pepper sprayed, but it does not change the fact that they did have the right to be there. The police were out of hand. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw the aftermath of what had happened to these children and it broke my heart. But I will not now, or ever, say that children have no place at any political action. If anything, the police have no right to be there. They obviously do not support what the rallies are about, and only serve to intensify the danger of attending. If they really didn't want to be there and didn't morally agree with their orders, why go along with them? Simply becoming part of law enforcement does not make you into a robot. It is possble to maintain some sense of rational thought and do your job. Pepper spraying a child in the face for any reason is NOT a rational thought. Any officer guilty of doing this does not deserve to be walking aroung a free individual. Remember.....police are meant to protect and serve, not harrass and violently attack.

Chemical Weapons Against Children 26.Aug.2002 18:06

brew brew@thedailybrew.com

I am sickened that the Portland police assaulted you and your children with chemical weapons. I hope you and your kids are OK. I hope you have the courage and stamina to tell the world about the crimes committed against you. People need to know that the Bush Administration is willing to use these brutal tactics to thwart the Constitutional rights of ordinary citizens to attend a fundraiser no less.

Mail and email addresses for media desired 26.Aug.2002 18:24


Rather than so much commenting, what would be really helpful is for someone from Portland to post the phone numbers, mail and email addresses of the major local newspapers and TV stations' news desks.

This would allow everyone who has commented here to take their same comments and write or call or fax these media outlets and ask what is happening with this story. If enough people ask (and it does not take that many), it will get mentioned. It's an interesting enough story that it might get picked up by some national outlet, which will be truly worthwhile.

Give us out-of-towners this kind of information so we can help. And if you're local, question the local media outlets. Ask them whether they've heard about this particularly story, and if so, why they think it is an unimportant part of the coverage about Bush's visit.

Children have a right to participate, too 26.Aug.2002 18:40

A Patriotic American jacksonthor@yahoo.com

To all those blaming the victims and telling people not to bring their children to protests, I say it's important to allow our children to participate in democracy, not just read about it in textbooks. Democracy might get messy at times, but it's our responsibility to show our kids that you have a voice and to stand up for what you think is right.
Look at the Boston Tea Party of 1770. That was a violent protest in which property was vandalized for a reason, and we glorify the participants, as we should. If our forefathers can damage property, we can still damage property when it works to show a point, like point out how the tax on tea was wrong. We should damage property but not individuals.

We need to come up with some targeted action like the Boston Tea Party and have waves of it across the country. Perhaps we should go to gas stations, especially Exxon-Mobil ones, and dump gas to protest Bush's war in the middle east for oil.

Last year, I brought my 1-year-old son to a protest against Bush in Wash. D.C. Fortunately, there was no violence by the police or anyone else there. It's important for protesters to bring their children to show the media, police, government, and everyone else that we are middle America, we have families, and we aren't going to stand for what the illegitimate leaders in the White House are doing to our country and the planet. We are just some black-clad radical leftovers from the '60s. We are Patriots who want our country back.
Such events as in Portland will give me pause on whether to bring my son again to a protest. But I think he has a right to be there. This is America, supposedly we still have certain rights.
The ones who are to blame for the violence are the ones who did it, which in this case, as usual, were the police and the Bush forces who put them up to it. The parents who brought their children to the protests are not to blame. They are patriotic Americans who wanted to show their kids democracy in action. And they got Bush fascism in action. But that's America, as it now is. Let's keep hitting the streets and bring about another revolution, as non-violently as we can [towards humans, not property].

Jackson Thoreau

Protest is American! 26.Aug.2002 19:21

drone drone@rccis.com

Some of the responses on this forum; the 911 operator's refusal to help--it all adds up to an attitude that the protestors aren't fellow human beings deserving of being treated with decency, kindness and respect. I don't know where this attitude comes from. As "A Patriotic American" thankfully points out above, this nation was founded on dissent. It's right there in the Constitution, in the First Amendment--we, the people, have the right to "petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The police always go in bearing sadistic "non-lethal" weapons and a combative attitude--is it any wonder why the result is always the same? This underscores why we need citizen review (with teeth) of the Portland Police Bureau.

By the way, rubber bullets aren't intended to be targeted at individuals. They're supposed to be fired from a distance, and richocheted into people's legs as a technique to get them to leave an area. Personally, I'd like to see pepper spray and rubber bullets banned, but if we must have them, at least the police could learn to use them properly.

this is for LibRscum 26.Aug.2002 19:45


You are obviously a cop or a lawyer. Personally I dont know which is worse, but I can tell you what I do know about you without ever having met. You are a weak minded foolish person with a college degree (educated idiot) with very few friends, if any at all, and more than likely 1 or more failed marriages. One more thing I can tell you is that yourself and people like you will Lick boots right up to the time when someone like me puts my boot so far up your ass you will taste it. My disdain for you and others with your type of mentality is huge, and believe it or not, people like me are the majority and ready to come out into the daylight. Believe it and sleep well punk, but you will get it in the end and doesn't look pretty....

Why? 26.Aug.2002 19:47


Why DID you brng those kids to a protest. Have you lost your mind? You have no sympathy from me, my friend. Yes, the police were out of line, and that is another issue. You put your kids in harms way and that's why I have a problem with this.

cdavidi2002 26.Aug.2002 20:02

State Candidate for House of Mo.

It doesn't matter whether there were kids there or not, and if the comment was made by an official that parents shouldn't bring their kids to a rally (protest or whatever), then that officer should be found and prosecuted. We are supposed to live in the land of the FREE, but we have overzealous gov't personnel pushing their weight around when it is absolutely not needed. When I win my election I will be the one in the faces of officers defending MY Constituents rights at all costs. That's what they elect me for.

This is definitely a U.N. Agenda in using a storm trooper attitude and ALL officers should be prosecuted to get the real culprits of endangering our children. They (the children) are our most precious commodity! They did not deserve to be treated as they were. These children will remember this for the rest of their lives whether we like it or not. Peace officers are just that (peace officers) and the ethics commission should step right in with a full investigation. In my opinion, make an example of the guilty officers.

As far as I'm concerned, they (the police) acted under orders and advice from a foreign power. Totally Unconstitutional. These officers acted as treasonists and should be treated as such! Prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and under tribunal law. Gov't personnel technically give up their constituional rights once they don the hat or the uniform as being on duty (public servants). The citizen has even more power to give orders than they do as long as they remain within the law. Demonstrations are legal under constituional law, and I don't think anyone violated that right since nobody was arrested for not having a permit to peacefully demonstrate.

Hey LIBSrSCUM 26.Aug.2002 20:39


Just another sheep along for the ride. Get a life!

Who is Insane? You're just A sheople 26.Aug.2002 20:50


Sounds like the sheople (those who follow the shepherd or the leader) have spoken. This is exactly what the elitists who run this country want you to believe. That all protesters, PATRIOTS, and anyone who dislikes what is happening in our government are terrorists and immediately implement USA PATRIOT ACT.

Police DO have the responsibilty to safety first whether children are there or not. The officer should have assessed the request after seeing the child (and HE DID)and reacted appropriately not indiscriminately as HE DID! The officer was totally in the wrong and all officers should be held accountable for the wrong of one officer. These officers hold all accountable in a protest even if only one or two cause the unrest. Turnabout is fair play in this matter, as the "Code of Silence" between officers will be implemented when the charges are leveled!

A Fascist State Are We 26.Aug.2002 21:35

Outraged American

My feelings towards some of these so-called policemen
are such that I had better not express them here in a public forum as I am afraid that a visit from the FBI might ensue. I think all reading this can read between the lines here.
People have the right to defend themselves, and it is a god-given right, not given by the government and therefore
not legally abrogated by it. If they were my children being pepper-sprayed, all I can say is god protect the slime who did it.

Leave No Child Un-Maced 26.Aug.2002 21:56

Kompassionate Konswervative

You should know better than to bring your children outdoors in this country while our nation is at W-ar!

Pepper spray is The New Family Value.

Any parent who doesn't realize that no child is safe in America today deserves a visit from Child & Family Services, I tell ya!


Spare the mace and spoil the child, and all that.

the really scary thing 26.Aug.2002 22:19


I've been to protests and they were loud and powerful but not dangerous. They were a great place for my child but thanks for your concern, Andre, Reality check, and CommonSense. Luckily, you did get me thinking tho'.

The really scary thing in all this is that today I took my child downtown! More than that, I took him out of our house--there was a shooting a couple of blocks away last month--and I allowed him to walk on the sidewalk even tho' cars have been known to jump the curb and hit pedestrians. He was also at risk for a dog to jump a fence or round a corner and attack him. What was I thinking?!

We used public transportation altho' people have started fights and even fired guns on buses in Portland. And we walked around downtown surrounded by street people, drug addicts, criminals,...I can't believe that my sweet child and I made it out alive! Because I've researched this and bad things have happened downtown.

Thanks to all of you who have questioned the judgement of these parents to take their children with them to a gathering. Don't bother calling CPS on me tho' because we're not leaving the house again--I've learned my lesson!

right to assemble!!! 26.Aug.2002 22:38


I feel so angry that the police did this to your children.
Which we can clearly see in the photos. i was going to attend the protest too, but couldn't because my son's family were visiting from out of town. If that would have been my kid i all hell would have broke lose. i would call the mayor, the newspaper,the police chief, and th cop would have been attacked. GOOD LUCK!! FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!

f ***ed up! 26.Aug.2002 23:15


this is so wrong!! i'll see those cops when they burn in hell! ah-haha. i just keep thinking how those children must have felt, they're so little and sweet. those cops better learn to back off or i'll be the one with the pepper spray no joke and what's with those cops being at the protest anyway their precence criminalizes the protesters. The cops being there to control traffic at a rally might be one thing but full riot gear is looking for trouble, or inciting it.

Pepper Spray==Summary Judgement+Punishment 26.Aug.2002 23:28


Hey, for the critics of the parents with kids, they and anybody else have a right to *not* be attacked with extremely painful chemical weapons, unprovoked! It's illegal, it's a violation of the Geneva convention, and it's in violation of the Constitution. Having personally been attacked with OC spray, it's one of the most painful things I've ever felt -a lot like being in a car accident.

Everybody has the expectation that the police will behave, that they will keep the crowd under control by negotiating with protest leaders and giving warning before they haul off and assault people.

I feel very sorry for the children of the parent, for the little baby. The only way to keep this from happening in the future is to sue the bastards. Also, maybe get a restraining order. The ACLU did this in Los Angeles against the LAPD during the Democratic Convention there two years ago, and guess what? It worked.

We have the right to peaceably assemble!

Portland Police 26.Aug.2002 23:29


I lived in Portland for more years that I want to remember. In that time, I came to know the police as the most racist brutal hostile law enforcement agency of any city in which I lived, excepting perhaps LA.

Many of these cops are just natural born mean. Violent.

Throwing dead possums in front of Black owned businesses.

Shoot first and don't bother asking questions.

Anyone remember "Don't choke 'em, Smoke 'em?.

etc etc etc.

This is from first hand observation of things happening to others- but not myself. I was never arrested or even questioned in Portland. I have no police record.

Donald is a true American patriot 26.Aug.2002 23:31

Descendent of John Hancock

Donald was right to take his children. He did not knowingly put his children in danger. The "police" are following the example of George Bush. They are all puppets of people who have a history of targeting children. They are trying to intimidate the American people from protesting the loss of their civil rights. They are trying to silence the people who have some clue of the truth. If our children are not taught to fight for their rights, they will not have rights and they will not know how to get them back. Donald is teaching his kids what America is supposed to be, not what the Bush Cult is creating. Shame on all you who do not know enough about history to know that every generation has to fight to keep what our founding fathers gave us. Shame on you for excusing criminal behavior and violations of human rights. You do not deserve the freedom others died to give you and Donald's babies were attacked to preserve.

Civil Society 26.Aug.2002 23:43


In a free society the rights of the citizenry to peacably assemble and petition for redress of grievances is fundamental to maintaining a free society. Those who would oppose such action reveal themselves as the closet totalitarians that they are. Their arguments are of no merit and should be granted no weight.
Do not let yourselves be diverted folks. The attempt to foment rage and intolerance takes many forms. While there are troglodytes who would defend the action of the Pigs be on your guard that they are not simply provacateurs attempting to use the artificial distinction of "Left" and "Right" to keep us divided. There are many at all points on the political spectrum who are, I am sure, appalled by the actions of the Pigs.
I would probably be regarded as a right winger by many of the people posting here but, to borrow a famous quote, I am one of those who while I might disagree with what you say would defend to the death your right to say it. And don't be so sure that those of us on the right disagree with you always and forever. There are common grounds on which all people of good heart and free spirit can meet. Do not let ideologic preconceptions blind you to a potential friend.
As for the dirty S.#$s in uniform who violated their trust to defend the community and instead behaved like some damned Storm Trooper. May the fires take you and the Devil his own. - Publius

Land of the Free... Sure, ok... 27.Aug.2002 01:35

A teen

Is it not American pride to be living in a nation of the Free and Liberated?

Then why must the father fear for the safety of his children and his family when he walked down the street to have a peek at a peaceful public protest?

Is it not the function of the police to serve and protect the innocent?

And why must us "minors" continue to be ignored and "protected" from issues such as this?

When people say "Kids don't know what's going on," I say you're blind.
I say the children understood pretty well that a lot people gathered out in the street because something wasn't right. They understood pretty well that the people in riot gear wasn't there to just watch. And I'm sure they understood that it wasn't safe anymore to walk down the street to have a look at a public gathering.

Is that not the bottom line?

We are the future, and the future begins with the present. If the younger population isn't exposed to issues like this in the present, then who do you think is going to fix them in the future?

We need a Revolution 27.Aug.2002 02:47

Minuteman 2002

The Government will not hold these people accountable for the actions!!! Since personal responsibility is not in their vocabulary I think we should take it in to our own hands. An officer who would spray a baby in the face with pepper spray should have his entire family deported to Somalia!

Some things never change... 27.Aug.2002 05:59


A common thread that runs through the responses of the people defending the police and blaming the parents is that they were not there. I fact, they never go protests because they "know" what goes on at "those things". Flat earthers.

Did you think it wouldn't happen to you?? 27.Aug.2002 06:01

Black Minute Man

White Amerikkka,

Welcome to the land of your own making! Did you guys really think that after allowing these types of things to go on against Black People for so loong in this country, that they (Your Government) wouldn't become absolute experts at it and eventually turn it on you all??? If so, that's typical White-American, Not-In-My-Back-Yard (NIMBY) thinking.

Well guess what? It's NOW-In-Your-Back-Yard. And for all of you that don't know, the US hasn't been legally under the Constitution since 1938, when they went bankrupt and subsequenmtly adopted the Unifrom Commercial Code (UCC). So all of you that think your "Constitutional" rights have been violated, guess what?? Your Right! But unless you "reserve" your rights under the Constitution, you have no real Constitutional rights under the UCC TO BE violated.

It's been said throughout the ages that injustice to one person is injustice to all persons. Given that you chose to allow this to happen to Black Americans for so long, I have to end this by quoting Malcomn X and say "YOUR CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST!"

Barney has Andy locked up with Ottis 27.Aug.2002 06:35


I am sickened by the brutality. And by the people who claim that it is the parents fault for bringing their kids to a protest. It is like they are saying that civilized Americans should be expecting brutal police actions. We always hear how America is better than countries ruled by uncivilized dicators who deny citizens a right to challenge the governing officials destructive practices and policies. But when protest comes to push and then to shove.... well, we see that Americans are being treated like Palestinians who have the nerve not to just roll over an die.

Despicable Police Tactics 27.Aug.2002 07:43


What the police did is despicable.
The brutality and Gestapo tactics of the police seems to escalate whenever the illegitimate pResident Bush is around.
I urge the family to file a lawsuit on behalf of those precious children immediately.

bad parents? 27.Aug.2002 07:55


i cannot BELIEVE how many parents in america still allow their children to attend school! with all the school shootings, they should KNOW that schools are dangerous places!!! the department of child and family services should take the kids away from all parents that let their kids go to school.

i'm proud to blame the victim.

America is NOT a free society 27.Aug.2002 08:02


America is not now, nor has it ever really been a free society. That is an illusion designed to keep the masses quiet. Ordinary American's lives are not valued in this society - your value depends on how much money you acquire, steal, or otherwise appropriate. Then and only then, after you have raked in at least a billion, can you have some degree of freedom. Thus, in this extreme capitalistic society, you have to pay for your freedom, just like you have to pay for your education, safety, clean air food and water, and justice. Everyone else - the regular folks who pay the taxes, can just rot, according to the capitalistic principles. Thus, your lives and those of your children mean nothing to this brutal society (unless you happen to be worth billions). Don't expect the "police" to protect you or your children. This is the reality of the situation! The police exist to protect the moneyed interests and that is all. We are in a state of siege by the extreme right wing. At this stage of the game, expect violence from the stormtroopers. If you read "The People's History of the United States" you will know that Federal troops killed poor folks and their kids all the time during labor disputes quite frequently. There is nothing to expect that this won't happen again. Should you bring your kids to a protest? In a free society, which WE DO NOT CURRENTLY HAVE, you could. How much do you want to sacrifice? I suggest a large tax protest - simply band together and do not pay Federal taxes. After, we paid for that pepper spray, didn't we? The rich and corporations don't have the burden of taxes that we do, so therefore, we could really hamstring the facists by refusing to pay to be tyrannized...

Gov't does NOT want peaceful protests 27.Aug.2002 08:09

Milton Q. Mudburn mudburn@yahoo.com

The current police state is extended through violence. A peaceful protest is undesirable to those in power, and it does not require much to interrupt the peace of a protest/demonstration or to create that perception for much of the populace through the media.

It has been demonstrated that much of the violence in protests during the 60s was instigated by FBI/CIA operatives within the protest groups. There is no reason to assume that much has changed in this regard -- the gov't has been shown to stick with those things/actions that "work" for it. Violence has also been injected into peaceful protests via the police oppressors assigned to the area of the protest. It has come to a point (as evidenced in several posts here) that protests are expected to be "violent" and at which police are expected to inflict some form of harm in the name of "controlling the violent/out-of-control protesters." This general perception contributes to the continued expansion of the fascist police state in the US.

A conclusion further derived from this general expectation of violence is that if the police exercise any form of power/force, it is not something to question. The idea is that, clearly, the police needed to respond in that way, so the protesters are responsible -- they brought it on themselves (and, in this case, upon their children). Such narrow-minded, unexamined thinking is a consequence of the metanarratives originating with the oppressors and promulgated through a variety of means, including through the oppressed.

The violence of the current Bushit fascist police state will continue to expand. A violent response to stay its expansion would have to be of such magnitude that it is practically not feasible. Radical non-violence and civil disobedience would eventually make inroads into this expansion, but it would require extreme commitment and sacrifice. Perhaps the masses will realize that the oppressed must wrest their freedom from the hands of their oppressors; freedom cannot be given to them by the oppressors. Until the last chains fall, freedom must make slaves of us all.

Do You Own Yourself? - YOU ARE NOT FREE! 27.Aug.2002 08:11

Butler Shaffer

One of my favorite quotations comes from Thomas Pynchon: "if they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers." Our world is in the mess it is in today because most of us have internalized the fine art of asking the wrong questions. Contrary to the thinking that would have us believe that the conflict, violence, tyranny, and destructiveness that permeates modern society is the result of "bad" or "hateful" people, disparities in wealth, or lack of education, all of our social problems are the direct consequence of a general failure to respect the inviolability of one another's property interests!

I begin my Property classes with the question: "do you own yourself?" Most of my students eagerly nod their heads in the affirmative, until I warn them that, by the time we finish examining this question at the end of the year, they will find their answer most troubling, whatever it may be today. "If you do own yourself, then why do you allow the state to control your life and other property interests? And if you answer that you do not own yourself, then what possible objection can you raise to anything that the state may do to you?" We then proceed to an examination of the case of Dred Scott v. Sandford.

The question of whether Dred Scott was a self-owning individual, or the property of another, is the same question at the core of the debate on abortion. Is the fetus a self-owning person, or an extension of the property boundaries of the mother? The same property analysis can be used to distinguish "victimizing" from "victimless" crimes: murder, rape, arson, burglary, battery, theft, and the like, are victimizing crimes because someone's property boundaries were violated. In a victimless crime, by contrast, no trespass to a property interest occurs. If one pursues the substance of the "issues" that make up political and legal debates today, one always finds a property question at stake: is person "x" entitled to make decisions over what is his, or will the state restrain his decision-making in some way? Regulating what people can and cannot put into their bodies, or how they are to conduct their business or social activities, or how they are to educate their children, are all centered around property questions.

"Property" is not simply some social invention, like Emily Post's guide to etiquette, but a way of describing conditions that are essential to all living things. Every living thing must occupy space and consume energy from outside itself if it is to survive, and it must do so to the exclusion of all other living things on the planet. I didn't dream this up. My thinking was not consulted before the life system developed. The world was operating on the property principle when I arrived and, like the rest of us, I had to work out my answers to that most fundamental, pragmatic of all social questions: who gets to make decisions about what? The essence of "ownership" is to be found in control: who gets to be the ultimate decision maker about people and "things" in the world?

Observe the rest of nature: trees, birds, fish, plants, other mammals, bacteria, all stake out claims to space and sources of energy in the world, and will defend such claims against intruders, particularly members of their own species. This is not because they are mean-spirited or uncooperative: quite the contrary, many of us have discovered that cooperation is a great way of increasing the availability of the energy we need to live well. We have found out that, if we will respect the property claims of one another and work together, each of us can enjoy more property in our lives than if we try to function independently of one another. Such a discovery has permitted us to create economic systems.

There is no way that I could have produced, by myself, the computer upon which I am writing this article. Had I devoted my entire life to the undertaking, I would have been unable even to have conceived of its technology. Many other men and women, equally unable to have undertaken the task by themselves, cooperated - without even knowing one another - in its creation. Lest you think that my writing would have to have been accomplished through the use of a pencil, think again: I would also have been unable to produce a pencil on my own, as Leonard Read once illustrated in a wonderful, brief essay.

Such cooperative undertakings have been possible because of a truth - acknowledged by students of marketplace economic systems, particularly the Austrians - about human nature: each of us acts only in anticipation of being better off afterwards as a result of our actions. Toward whatever ends we choose to act - and such ends are constantly rearranging their priorities within us - their satisfaction is always expressed in terms inextricably tied to decision making over something one owns (or seeks to own). Whether I wish to acquire some item of wealth, or to give it away; whether I choose to write some great novel or paint some wondrous work of art; or whether I just wish to lie around and look at flowers, each such act is premised on the fact that we cannot act in the world without doing so through property interests. It is in anticipation of being able to more fully express our sense of what is important to us, both materially and spiritually, that we cooperate with one another.

"Property" also provides a means for maximizing both individual liberty and peace in society. For once we identify who the owner of some item of property is, that person's will is inviolate as to such property interest. He or she can do what they choose with respect to what is theirs. If I own a barn, I can set fire to it should I so choose. If I must first get another's permission, such other person is the owner. Individual liberty means that my decision making is immune from the coercion of others, and coercion is always expressed in terms of property trespasses.

At the same time, the property principle limits the scope of my decision making by confining it to that which is mine to control. This is why problems such as industrial "pollution" are usually misconceived, reflecting the truth of Pynchon's earlier quote. A factory owner who fails to confine the unwanted byproducts of his activities to his own land, is not behaving as a property owner, but as a trespasser. Economists have an apt phrase for this: socializing the costs. He is behaving like any other collectivist, choosing to extend his decision making over the property of others!

But not all of us choose to pursue our self-interests through cooperation with others. Cooperation can exist only when our relationships with others are on a voluntary basis which, in turn, requires a mutual respect for the inviolability of one another's property boundaries. Those who seek to advance their interests in non-cooperative ways, create another system: politics. If you can manage to drag your mind away from the drivel placed there by your high school civics class teacher, and look at political systems in terms of what they in fact do, you will discover this: every such system is founded upon a disrespect for privately owned property! All political systems are collectivist in nature, for each presumes a rightful authority to violate the will - including confiscation - of property owners. One can no more conceive of "politics" without "theft" than of "war" without "violence."

Every political system is defined in terms of how property is to be controlled in a given society. In communist systems, the state confiscates all the means of production. In less-ambitious socialist systems, the state confiscates the more important means of production (e.g., railroads, communications, steel mills, etc.). Under fascism, "title" to property remains in private hands, but "control" over such property is exercised by the state. Thus, fascism has given us state regulatory systems, in which property owners - be they farmers, homeowners, or businesses - have the illusion of owning what they believe to be "theirs," while the state increasingly exercises the real ownership authority (i.e., control). In welfare state systems, the state confiscates part of the income of individuals and redistributes it to others.

As stated earlier, property is an existential fact. Whatever the society in which we live, someone will make determinations as to who will live where, what resources can be consumed by whom (and when), and how such property will be controlled. Such decisions can either be made by individual property owners - over what is theirs to control - or by the state presuming the authority to control the lives of each of us. When such decisions are made by the state, it is claiming ownership over our lives.

It is at this point that I let the students in on the secret the political establishment would prefer not to have revealed: the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution did not end slavery, but only nationalized it! That most Americans acquiesce in such political arrangements, and take great offense should anyone dare to explain their implications, has led me to the conclusion that America may be the last of the collectivist societies to wither away. Most Americans, sad to say, seem unprepared to deny the state's authority to direct their lives and property as political officials see fit. The reason for this, as my first-day question to students is designed to elicit, is that most of us refuse to insist upon self-ownership.

We may, of course, choose to accept our role as state-owned chattels, particularly if we are well-treated by our masters. We may be so conditioned in our obeisance that, like cattle entering the slaughterhouse, we may pause to lick the hand of the butcher out of gratitude for having been well cared for. On the other hand, we may decide to reclaim our self-ownership by taking back the control over our lives that we have long since abandoned.

Perhaps the insanity of our social destructiveness - including the Bush Administration's deranged declaration of a permanent war against the rest of the world - will bring about an examination of alternative ways of living together in conditions of peace and liberty. Our political systems cannot bring about such harmonious and life-sustaining ways because they are premised on a rejection of the principle of self-ownership. In a society of self-owning individuals, there would be no place for politicians, bureaucrats, and other state functionaries. Like the rest of us, they would have to confine their lives to minding their own business, and deriving whatever benefit they could from persons who chose to cooperate with them.

There is one person who can restore you to a state of self-ownership, however, and that person is you. To do so, you need only assert your claim, not as some empty gesture, but in full understanding of the existential meaning of such a claim, including the willingness to take full control of and responsibility for your life. While your claim will likely evoke cries of contempt from many, you may also find yourself energized by a life force that permeates all of nature; an élan vital that reminds us that life manifests itself only through individuals, and not as collective monstrosities; that life belongs to the living, not to the state or any other abstraction.

Not yet mentioned 27.Aug.2002 08:29

Fran franxis@shaw.ca

Pepper spray a family in a peaceful protest in the city they live in, pepper spray a family in their own homes. There is no difference. A door of a house is only the smallest barrier to weaponized, arrogant police.

By what authority does anyone grant a person to decide that pepper spraying a child is an appropriate action? And then to laugh and jeer?

protests must be family oriented for unity 27.Aug.2002 08:54

heath h.

whether or not to take children to a protest is a no-brainer to any who value civic responsibility. i have children and i don't mean to sound like i'd put them in harm's way, but our children need to be at the protests with us, and i don't mean as bait. protests should resemble the humane world we wish to achieve, and this world unquestionably includes our children. that we shouldn't take our children is yet another appeasement that many of us who would protest give over easily to the establishment that we protest against. we do it without even realizing it. we need to stop appeasing and PROTEST! these cops were WRONG, and that is that; if they want to continue pepper spraying children, then let 'em, until we as protesters realize to bring our video cameras to protests with us. then they will stop pepper spraying our children. seriously, instead of worrying about not bringing your kids, wonder why your video camera is not attached to you as you leave for the protest. video is the protesters best protection.

The Bush Triggered Police Brutality 27.Aug.2002 10:26

Ms. Josephine Sixpack

Mark (Mon. Aug 26th 6:24 pm) has the right idea. Most intelligent people would agree that what was allowed to take place in Portland was horrid. But, the call to action must now supply names, addresses, email, and faxes for all concerned individual to actively get involved. Were it not for the IndyMedia and like outlets I'd never have heard of this story--and why not?

To all those who blame the parents for bringing the children. I say, demonstrations are the best classroom. No longer can you teach that "Police Officers" are your friend--and thats a very sorry state of affairs. All this because Dubya was attending a fundraiser in Portland?

No don't leave the children at home, bring them along with grandma, grandpa, the infirmed, the neighbors and family pet! When all is said and done by this current administration they'll all be affected by this Bush regime.

Continue to call for the masses to cry out, its the only salvation in sight now. Hurry.

WAKE UP PEOPLE 27.Aug.2002 10:31


The people in this country need to wake up and smell the coffee. These children getting pepper sprayed is a prime example of the Harlot this country has become. To the parents of these children, my whole heart goes out to you and what you and your little ones have suffered!

The powers that be have whittled away the Constitution until there is nothing left! Are you still believing their lies? Has the great deception been implanted on your heart until you can see nothing else, and still you cry up for a Constituion that no longer exists? And while they were whittling it away, many citizens sat in their lazyboy recliners with their remote controls focused on their own personal propaganda machines, the tv.

WAKE UP! COME OUT OF YOUR SLUMBER! We are NO LONGER a country of the FREE! The noose has been squarley fitted around our necks and it's going to get A LOT worse!!!!

Seek the Lord, with all your heart, mind and soul, for these are the times that have been prophecied. America is "MYSTERY BABLYON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH". This country will pay for it's indulgences and its blasphemies, and she will be destroyed.

"For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." Rev 18:3

"Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not recieve any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes." Rev 18:4,5

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for true and just are His judgements. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of His servants." Rev 19:1,2

In His Perfect Love,

I feel sick 27.Aug.2002 10:35

Please Dont Kill Me

Well I've been saying we were going to get to this point for a long, long time. Looks like the Fourth Reich is now going into full effect. At least some people are realizing it, and that gives me hope. To all you, ahem, people who think being oppressed by the police and killing anyone in any country who doesn't agree with you are good things - YOU are the problem, YOU are the reason for the impending horror to come. YOU are the people who don't push for saving the environment because it's "bad for the economy". YOU are the people who hate minorities because they won't "just get a job". YOU are happy in your own little insulated worlds, you'll be dead before the really bad stuff happen, so who cares right? YOU are the people that have saddened me into this painful state of cynical hopelessness that I live with constantly now. Kids can be hurt anywhere, at anytime. The child was not hurt by protesters, but by police. They stand there in thier battle gear and beat people at will, with practically no one to answer to. YOU allow this by defending them. I have seen teenaged girls pushed down deliberately by police for not moving fast enough. She was moving mind you, but not at the quick pace that was expected. So she was pushed down. Ive seen the police destroy multitudes of personal property, but it was just hippies' stuff, so who cares right? It wasn't like they destroyed property of a real person that wheres a suit and defends the police oppresion. Police in general (as was said earlier) are the dumb jocks from high school who are on power trips and want to weild power over other people. They want to use thier power to inflict punishment on men and to intimidate women into doing what they want. I have seen many, many police like this. I have only EVER met ONE policemen who I don't feel would fit into that category. But this isn't necesarily a rant on the police. I wanted to make a simple point to all these pathetic people saying its the PARENTS responsibility to keep children from harm, therefore the parent is at fault. Are you completely brainwashed and dense? Using that logic, parents should never take children into a situation that is remotely dangerous because if anything happens to the child, it's the parents fault. If a rollercoaster goes off the tracks, don't blame the amusement park - the parents shouldn't have brought them. If a child is shot accidentally by police in a bad neighborhood, let's blame MOM! Yes I know you were holding his hand, but you shouldn't have taken him outside in that neighborhood because any second the police might just have to shoot somebody and he might be in the way! As another writer said, just stay inside and you won't get hurt.

The 'kids should stay home' crowd are implying that if ANYONE goes to a protest and the police beat, belittle, maim, pepperspray, or even kill them, then ITS THIER OWN DAMN FAULT. They shouldn't have been in that 'dangerous' situation. According to these people, if you go to an assembly to protest the government, you should EXPECT to be peppersprayed and beaten. So therefore don't blame the police, blame yourself for daring to question authority.

Hitler is laughing his ass off right now.


Sorry I wasn't there to support you all 27.Aug.2002 10:47

Carol Moore islandwolf@hotmail.com

You are very brave and should be proud that you are actually taking a stand. I will be there with you next time. You probably don't remember me but I met you in Washington DC in May 2001 protesting the stolen election. Your family was behind me. I was wearing the tee shirt "He's Not My President". I remember how impressed was that you were teaching your children to be good citizens of this free country. Its a shame they had to learn so young that there is an element here that would like to take our freedom away and a lot of people who just can't be bothered to think about it. I would like to put that picture on a tee shirt if that's OK with you. It's already the background on my computer screen. Do you need money for legal costs? Is there an address that I can send a check to?
The best to you and your family
Carol Moore

Contact info for local news agencies 27.Aug.2002 11:41

A good mother

Don, much love and support to you and your family. Thank all the powers that be that there are parents like you out in the world teaching your children by courageous example.

Someone upthread made a good point--this is not getting enough coverage by local news. Here's how you can help.

The local (conservative) paper is the Oregonian. They ran these articles:

 link to www.oregonlive.com

 link to www.oregonlive.com

 link to www.oregonlive.com

You can email:  Maxinebernstein@news.oregonian.com,  harryesteve@news.oregonian.com, and/or  janiehar@news.oregonian.com

The Portland Tribune ran this story:


You can email:  janderson@portlandtribune.com and/or  jredden@portlandtribune.com

Portland also has a weekly paper who you can email:  jschrag@wweek.com,  clydgate@wweek.com,  nbudnick@wweek.com,  njaquiss@wweek.com,  thenose@wweek.com, and/or  aroe@wweek.com

Some of our local news stations are:


What if they gave a protest and nobody came! 27.Aug.2002 12:03

The_Kitchen_Cynic MichaelMcHale@aol.com

I just happened to run across all this FooFraw.

Listen very carefully, and you'll hear the Spirit of the 60's. Let's suppose you engineer a protest (for any purpose) and the protesters line up, march, wave their placards, make a few speeches, and then leave. That ain't much fun. Besides, the media will most likely react with "Yawwn! Another protest. Let's have another beer."

Now, let's reorganize. . To properly prep the Media, we'll say, "This will be a Peaceful Protest. Of course, we don't know exactly what will happen. There might be some activity from radical elements. Or the Police might overreact. But we're planning for it to be peaceful." That'll throw in enough hints that they'll almost certainly send a camera crew, if not an entire team. The newspapers will, at the very least, assign stringers.

Plan for the confrontation between protesters and police to occur is an enclosed space. A cul-de-sac is best. Lacking that, gather in the streets, so that there will be clearly marked areas that are "us" and "them." Under no circumstances should the protest take place in an open area, like a park or field.

Finally we'll put women and children in the front of the crowd.

Provoke the police to violence. Charge them, throw things; yell obscenities; move toward an area or building or person they think they are protecting. Remember that it is not necessary that ALL of the police are provoked. One or two will do, because violence, like an avalanche, only requires the well placed snowball to get started.

It helps if the police are a bunch of jack-booted, sub-moronic, thugs, of course. But it really isn't necessary. Everyone, no matter their intelligence or level of compassion, has a breaking point. And Mob Rule also can apply to a mob of police.

Then, if you can get pictures of Women and Children being hit by the police, or bowled over by water hoses, or pepper-sprayed, you've won. The pictures (and the resulting news stories) will generate a loud outcry. The merits of your case (supposedly the reason for the protest) will get lost in the following discussions. Although arguments are better than discussions, because reason is forgotten and emotions will rule. The violence will become the subject, not the "Cause."

Should the police have reacted the way they did? Should the Women and Children have been there in the first place? The system is corrupt! The protesters are a bunch or Right Wing (or Left Wing) crazies who got what they deserved! Any state that allows (or encourages the police to act that way must be destroyed!

Fix the blame! Don't try to fix the problem!

Once the adrenaline starts pumping, the "Cause" is irrelevant. You're in control! And that's what you've wanted all along.

Colorado - High up

Sorry I wasn't there with you all 27.Aug.2002 12:11

Carol Moore islandwolf@hotmail.com

You are very brave and should be proud that you are actually taking a stand. I will be there with you next time. I would be proud to be part of your childrens protective guard. You probably don't remember me but I met you in Washington DC in May 2001 protesting the stolen election. Your family was behind me. I was wearing the tee shirt "He's Not My President". I remember how impressed was that you and your wife were teaching your children to be good citizens of this free country. Its a shame they had to learn so young that there is an element here that would like to take our freedom away and a lot of people who just can't be bothered to think about it. I would like to put that picture on a tee shirt if that's OK with you. It's already the background on my computer screen. Do you need money for legal costs? Is there an address that I can send a check to?
The best to you and your family
Carol Moore

To contact the mayors office 27.Aug.2002 12:30

A good mother


Dan Saltzman - Public Affairs

Police Department

Independent Police Review Division
(503) 823 0146

Outside Obsevationz 27.Aug.2002 13:05


I used to go to rallies and protests back in the Rock-Against-Reagan days, as well as many Animal Rights gatherings, and even then it was the same story...The media will only show the sensationalized pictures, and always show the police "retaliating". True or not! Luckly, I was able to go to protests at a VERY young age. My first one I was 12. I am 33 now. It was a better education than Collage! I remember how it felt to get hit in the head with battons, and pushed around by cops UNPROVOKED! ( Yes, for the record, I feel kids should go to protests to fully understand how the Major media lies to everyone willing to fall for it!) That was years ago. But I have been keeping an eye out for what really happed over the years vs. media spin by keeping contact with my friends who still continue to go to protests. I have made some improtant observations I would like to convey for Everyones Future Safety. I first saw the "COPS" IN BLACK" duing the WTO protests in Seattle.I'm talkig about cops dressed in black body armour, rubber & plastic bullets and pepperspray. No Identification! (Big Red Alert!), and noticably TOO WELL ORGANIZED IN TERROR! I had NEVER seen anything like that before, so I started to do some investigating on my own. Time passes. I see the same thing turn leathal in Genoa, Italy. Same M.O., and the pieces started falling into place, Thanx to INDYMEDIA! Time passes again, and I recieve a video by Alex Jones called "POLICE STATE..The TAKEOVER"! Infowars.com . This tape had video of some of the more rambunctious Black block anarchists going around a corner in Italy, and Changing clothing INTO these Black Stormtroopers!! The video shows how the police in Seattle and Genoa, were letting the "Anarchists" run ammok for a while, then after the reporters are in proper position, THEN come the "Stormtroopers of Love" to save the day with thier sprays and bullets. This video is obtainable (as well as other documented evedence of the New Whirrled Order)at www.infowars.com ! Please check it out for your selves and make up your own mind! (if of course, you don't already know about this tape). Could it be that the black block anarchists are simply the cops own "Brown shirts"? Convinently turning protests UN-PEACEFUL? Notice how in Seattle, the cops NEVER raided the building the Block were holding up in. TOO COINCIDENTAL! Now I am NOT an expert on this subject, I am only noting my observations, and I believe the "cops in black" may not be the cops normally in that jurisdiction.( Thus, NO Identification!) Notice how when they Appear, The identifiable cops step WAY BACK, and let the hired guns go to work. This would explian why the police, and the hospitals, and the 911 operators ARE NOT ON THE SAME PAGE! I am not accusing anyone of anything, I just want to plant seeds of observation for the brave ones on the front lines. Video cameras seem to be your best defence. They have no problem video taping you for their files, so, that is a two way street. In closing, I would like to wish praise for the people who helped wipe the tears of the sprayed faces.. young and old. Keep up the good work! Keep informing and educating each other. Keep on organizing and working together for a peaceful change. The whole world is watching. Peace.

I'm Disgusted 27.Aug.2002 13:35


I'm disgusted by the actions of the police, but even more disgusted that some of you are trying to lay the blame on the parents. HOW DARE YOU. We as citizens have a RIGHT to voice our concerns to the government and to attend rallies. We have the RIGHT to be bring our children to what are supposed to be peaceful rallies. And we have the RIGHT to be secure in knowing that the police aren't going to drench our children in fucking pepper spray! 10 MONTHS OLD! That baby is 10 MONTHS OLD and some fucking pig sprayed him with pepper spray!! What the hell is wrong with you people? You think that ANYTHING can excuse that?! If so, you're just as bad as the cops that did it. And don't you think that this says something about the country we live in? That we have to fear the police to the extent that we can't bring our children to peaceful rallies without them being assaulted?!

My daughter's first rally was supposed to be tomorrw(unfortunately, I have no money for gas to make the two hour trip). It's supposed to be a peaceful gather to protest the war on Iraq. Why should I have to fear for my daughters safety, because I want to go and stand in front of a building with some other people? Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.

I'm so sorry for what this family has gone through. I hope you sue the fucking shit out of the cops. Jesus, land of the free indeed.

What if they had a protest and nobody came? 27.Aug.2002 13:51

Read Barlett & Steele's work!

To the cynic:

You said, in your rant, which was only tenuously related to the topic being discussed:

"Finally we'll put women and children in the front of the crowd."

Pay attention. These people were NOT IN THE FRONT.

Then, you went on to suggest the following:

"Provoke the police to violence. Charge them, throw things; yell obscenities; move toward an area or building or person they think they are protecting."

Again, your powers of comprehension are lacking. NOBODY provoked these stormtroopers.

For the love of humanity, PAY ATTENTION! If nothing else, you might be concerned with how silly you look when people have to point out basic facts which you have failed to grasp.

To Don: God bless you and your family. Thanks for standing up against our dictator.

Hmm. 27.Aug.2002 14:06


My mother just showed up and her comment to all you trying to blame the parents is "People act like because you're at a protest you suddenly lose all your rights." I guess that's what some of you think, hmmm?

Why did this happen? 27.Aug.2002 15:30

Old Friend

WOW! We are a divided country! Pointing out fault does not move us forward! In America it is our right to walk the streets at any time we choose! Pepper spraying an angry mob is a radical deterrent! Pepper spraying a 3-year old child is criminal. The question is who is responsible? The cops or the parents! The gray area is why did the cops see fit to spray the crowd? Did the crowd become angry? Did the parents take the necessary steps to protect their children? Was this a simple lapse in judgment? The alternate is beyond my comprehension. As for the cops, their job is one that is way under paid and way under appreciated! I ask each and every one of you, if a thug kicks in your door in the wee hours of the night, whom are you going to call? Most of the opinions I have read are purely politically motivated. Is there anything of substance we can sink our teeth into? Too many unanswered questions to have so many hard answers. Do you believe the cops? Do you believe the parents? I for one do not believe we know all the facts! I'll look forward to finding out more information before I side with either of these hard lined positions. Hotheaded people formulating dimwitted assumptions to suit their political agendas make ours a weak country! I know calling one another names does not move us forward! I hope for a mutual peace in our country! We need to draw from within to move matters in a positive direction. Our children are depending upon us!

My Comments 27.Aug.2002 15:35

Old Friend

WOW! We are a divided country! Pointing out fault does not move us forward! In America it is our right to walk the streets at any time we choose! Pepper spraying an angry mob is a radical deterrent! Pepper spraying a 3-year old child is criminal. The question is who is responsible? The cops or the parents! The gray area is why did the cops see fit to spray the crowd? Did the crowd become angry? Did the parents take the necessary steps to protect their children? Was this a simple lapse in judgment? The alternate is beyond my comprehension. As for the cops, their job is one that is way under paid and way under appreciated! I ask each and every one of you, if a thug kicks in your door in the wee hours of the night, whom are you going to call? Most of the opinions I have read are purely politically motivated. Is there anything of substance we can sink our teeth into? Too many unanswered questions to have so many hard answers. Do you believe the cops? Do you believe the parents? I for one do not believe we know all the facts! I'll look forward to finding out more information before I side with either of these hard lined positions. Hotheaded people formulating dimwitted assumptions to suit their political agendas make ours a weak country! I know calling one another names does not move us forward! I hope for a mutual peace in our country! We need to draw from within to move matters in a positive direction. Our children are depending upon us!

Well... that's one side 27.Aug.2002 15:53


Hmmm... we hear one side of this. A few points come to mind.

The pictures posted do NOT show indications of pepper spray on the father or the child - you want to see what they should look like, have alook at the girl in the black shirt on the ground behind them.

In an inquiry, the 911 tapes must be made available - have the transcripts been requested?

You *chose* to be at the protest. You *chose* to take your small children with you. You *chose* to not leave when things started to turn ugly. *YOU* are at fault. This is not a question of your rights being infringed, but rather a question of your judgement.

Dang right I blame you for this. If your kids had not been there, this would not be an issue.

And I *still* don't believe you.

But you sure got a response, didn't you.

Plants and trolls, la la la 27.Aug.2002 17:00

Amazed in NYC

Plants and trolls, la la la! I am neither fooled nor impressed. Nice try. You can easily see who is a concerned parent making a point and who is a troll.

However, what really astonishes me is this: we've reached the damned point where people actually argue that hey, it's a guy's own fault for bringing kids to a protest where the cops will crack heads! Good lord. This country is becoming a police state and dissenters are lambasted for including families in protest for social and political change? No wonder the constitution gets shredded while people sit back behind their walled-off lives and watch. No wonder that simian hand puppet has been allowed to seize the executive branch. No wonder... ah well, you get the point. Look folks, at this point, it's about resistance. It's about saying no at all costs. No one wants to admit it, but this is The Big Time.

Sad 27.Aug.2002 17:05


While I do think that it was totally inappropriate for the police to pepper spray the family, especially with an infant present, I question why the children and baby were ther in the first place. Peaceful or not, a protest is no place for small childrem

A Mother woith common sense to a 5 month old

You expect humanity from the pigs? 27.Aug.2002 19:13

Dream On

They're programmed to keep you in line, just like you've been programmed to obey them - and to see them as heroes.

You just got to see the reality of your heroes, America - did you like what you saw?

Heroes - that's about a laugh. I've never met a cop who was anything but a jackbooted scumbag at the core, and that's God's own truth.

Suffer the little children 27.Aug.2002 20:02


Just a reply to non believer. I heard the same excuse when I was living in the middle east. If a cab driver had an accident while I was in the cab it was automatically my fault. Why? Because if I hadn't hailed him down, asked to be taken to a certain address, and riden there in his cab, well he wouldn't have been there to have the accident, therefore it was my fault. Wonderful logic, eh?

However, no one, no police officer of any kind, in town or out of town backup, has any right or any reason, whatsoever, to assault a child, an infant in arms. No reason, period. The act itself, no matter how the people got there or why they were there, would it have made a difference if they were Bush fans and wanted a glimpse, is reprehensable. All by itself the act of assaulting an infant is heinous, inhumane, and reprehensable.

A couple thoughts 27.Aug.2002 22:33


I think that the question of the police conduct is being confused with the question of the parents' conduct. Even if it was stupid of the parents to bring their kids, that doesn't absolve the police; and police brutality doesn't mean that the parents weren't at fault too. Theoretically, both could be at fault, or neither might be.

Should these parents have brought their kids? I don't know. There's no doubt in my mind that they should be able to. Dissent is an important part of any true democracy, and kids should definitely be able to see people participating in their own society. Still, knowing that you should be able to bring your kids to a protest doesn't mean that you should risk the lives of your children. But hindsight is too easy. Lots of protests are peaceful, and I have no reason to think that these parents had any idea that their kids would get pepper-sprayed. Have we come to the point where we accuse people that we disagree with of exposing their own children to pepper spray for publicity's sake? That's an awfully strong accusation, and you better have some strong evidence if you're going to make that claim.

As for the police, it seems clear that pepper-spraying children was well beyond the call of duty. Since I wasn't there, I have no idea under what circumstances violence broke out. The police probably genuinely thought that they were doing their job with appropriate force. It's easy (on both sides) to over-react and let things get out of control. That doesn't mean that the police have no responsibility. If you're wearing full riot gear and using pepper spray to protect yourself against unarmed (I'm assuming) civilians, that's probably a sign that you're not responding with appropriate force. Those who over-reacted need to be punished, but I think the deeper issue is the training and culture that must exist within the police department. Why aren't the police properly paid? Why aren't they trained to respect and assist peaceful protests, instead of acting hostile towards them? Maybe the protests wouldn't be big news anymore (though the mainstream media don't seem to be paying much attention to this anyway), but a lot fewer people would get pepper-sprayed.

Boy oh Boy we are in trouble! 28.Aug.2002 00:41

Aussie Fence Sitter

Boy oh boy you americans are in trouble? it is hard to know where to start! I have been reading all posts above and you are in trouble and unfortunately you drag the rest of the world with you? I think one of the best posts is by time4change 1.01pm Sun Aug 25 02 entitled What is the real issue here? Go read it?

Currently you have one of the craziest regimes ever in power, the attacks on your civil liberties that have occurred since S11, are to say the least EXTORDINARY! $hrub and his war hawks are tearing you bill of rights and constitution to bits! The new powers the CIA and FBI have got and are getting make Orwell?s nightmare look tame! And now Homeland Security is looking at turning everybody into a neighborhood spy for the government!

Man, you guys are in trouble? My government is currently trying to pass terrorist legislation that would allow our FBI equivalent, ASIO, to arrest and interrogate people as young as 10 without charge for 48 hours and to renew the arrest indefinitely. Your government has already done this! On top of that there is no right to silence and the innocent until proven guilty will be reversed! MADNESS! This has all been inspired by your mad government!

And only today dick chainey says he ?believes? that saddam will get nuclear weapons soon so we must invade now!! F*** Me Dead! Now you country will go to war over a single unreligious belief!

Boy oh boy we are all in trouble?

Strength to all those who stand up to the corporate fascist regimes around the world.

Aussie Fencesitter

Many different points of view 28.Aug.2002 00:48

jessica c - a high school freshman

Ok, there are many different points of view here, and i dont think any one person is going to completely agree with any of them.
first one - for all you people dissing the police and such..HELLO!! WAKE UP! do the numbers 9-11 mean anything to you!!?? where were you pointing out your bad thoughts about police during this time? right, i thought so.

next one - ARE WE A POLICE STATE? WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? there is a meaning to the words "PEACEFUL protest"!!! i believe (and this may be true) that ANYBODY that gets into any type of law enforcement should have to read it through many times, and write a very large report on it, IF NOT MEMORIZE IT.

mine - first of all, i think it is a great idea to get your kids involved in politics at an early age, but cant you find a better way than to take them to protests? if you're a parent, the rule should ALWAYS be better safe than sorry (ok, a little freedom), and this is coming from a kid! i also think that the police were COMPLETELY WRONG in spraying you, especially when it is still peaceful and you are trying to find a way out! that is STUPID! tho not all police are like that - STEREOTYPES SUCK! again, september 11th.
so, i guess that there are many different ways of looking at this situation, and we all need to look at all of them

Many different points of view - cont 28.Aug.2002 01:01

jessica c - a high school freshman

i realize that i forgot to say constitution when i said that anybody getting into law enforcement should read "it"

if they were good parents.................... 28.Aug.2002 03:02

mamansita na

then there kids would be in daycare. it feels so good to be able to buy your kids all of the junk the tv tells them they need.

my favorite comment in this discussion has to be the guy who says "if you can't afford a babysitter how can you afford to tAKe the day off from work to protest."
it's a riddle, of course! the answer is simple, watch your own kids!
he then went on to say how obvious it should be that his kids came first to him because he worked his ass off on a job. maybe his little kids don't understand why he abandons them every day with someone who only watches because they are paid to. and not very well. what other job could you get a grown person to do for $3 or$4 dollars an hour. maybe kids dont understand why they spend most of their day every day away from them their families that love them. or perhaps guys who always argue to keep the kids out of the business of life just had a woman at home (it must be nice to own a woman of your very own)who took care of the details of care giving.
people who listen to their kids know that they need them more than any stuff money can buy. sure they need a roof and some food\ and that is no small task- but there could be another world. i thank-you to the parents who include their children in their vision to change this world into a nurturing healthy glowing planet.
love to the mamas and the little children-


Police and their supporters 28.Aug.2002 05:57


Police beat,rape,and kill.They have been convicted of this again and again.Those who support them are guilty just the same.This is not a problem that will go away by holding a sign and chanting "we are not the enemy".Stop them and their supporters where they spawn,while they sleep in their beds at night.They are sub-human and deserve to be treated as such.We can not afford to be neutral.

One street medics opinion 28.Aug.2002 08:29


Here's my perspective as a street medic.

Over the years I have been going to protests, things have changed radically. In the last 2 years, I have seen so many people who go to participate in a legal, non-violent way fucked up by cops. It's fucking ridiculous. People who are participating in green-zone actions are pepper-sprayed, grannies hit with rubber bullets. I've come to the conclusion that if you are anywhere NEAR a large protest these days, you MUST understand that you are risking arrest and violence. The police simply DO NOT CARE whether you personally have done anything illegal. There ARE NO SAFE ZONES.

Last year in Ottawa I saw a similar thing happen. The police had many vicious dogs out, and they were completely out of control. (There was a great picture of one of them biting another cop on the ass). A mother and her young child were seperated by a police line, and the dog come THISCLOSE to biting the kids head off. The mother was begging the cops to let her get to her kid, and they refused.

It is totally, completely ridiculous to blame the parents for these sitations. BUT. This is the new reality. Parents need to understand that at mass actions, they are putting themselves and their children at risk. They WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CONTROL THE RISK.

I no longer recommend that people take children to mass actions. There are a MILLION ways to participate in protest while not being actually at a mass demo (and millions more to be involved in the movement in other ways, (and to show kids what happens at demos)). Many of my friends can no longer take part in protests for a number of reasons - bail conditions, physical disabilities, violent allergies to pepperspray, emotional trauma from riot cops ... the list goes on. Many of them work on the legal support team, do the rear clinic medic work, the food not bombs team, etc. etc.

It's totally unfair. And there are many people working to change the system. But at the moment, that's the way it is.

Think about it this way - we live in a society where women aren't safe to walk home alone at night. What NEEDS to be done is to make that no longer the case. Until that happens, though, women have to take steps - taking self defence, arranging rides etc. It's fucked up that it's the women who have to change and not society. But until we change society, we know that we have to do these things.
If there was a rabid dog in your yard, it wouldn't be FAIR that you'd have to stay in the house, but you WOULD.

I HAVE seen people put their children at unnecessary risk at demos. One women I saw kept her baby out for 8 hours in the middle of winter in Ottawa. The kid was fucking BLUE. And when the pepper spray started and we started advising people with kids and health problems that they should try to move to safer areas, she took her kid to the front "because she wanted to see." Pepper spray has and will continue to cause fatalities in adults. With a kid's tiny windpipe, the risk skyrockets.

I DON'T think that these parents were irresponsible. But given the new reality, I think that if they went AGAIN, they'd be crazy.

I cant believe this 28.Aug.2002 08:39

mark moore markamm@Aol.com

As much as I would question a parent bringing a young child to a protest it is their right. Reading all of these comments calling the parent irresponsible, a bad parent, a coward, etc makes me sick. Who are you to make that call? So many people find it so easy to judge. Someone else said it already but I want to say it again stereotypes suck. Where you there? Do you know these people? Have you talked to this parent? Or are you making an uninformed decision of his/her character?

To those who say the police were just doing their job: The police are just as fallible as you. They are on the edge most the day and I am sure it affects their judgment.

And to the person who made the comment "Typical response from privileged white people - Side with the power structure, and blame the victim". Nice to see that you know what the typical white person thinks(privileged or not - and I am not)... Stereotypes suck!


Unbelievable 28.Aug.2002 09:34


i'm so sorry for what happened... i am so angry! I can't even imagine what you are feeling. i wish you the best and good luck in reaching justice.

HEY!! DUMBASS! 28.Aug.2002 09:45

Smarter than Donny here...

You should know that most large scale riots in portland turn out with people being peppersprayed. You should not have even been in the crowd if you weren't prepared to be sprayed. You have nobody else to blame but yourself for being there and the group of assholes who thought that it would be a good idea to start getting rowdy and provoke the police, causing them to use spray and gas to disperse the crowd. You have a right to hire a baby sitter instead of subjecting your kids to that.

This is why we need the Second Ammendment 28.Aug.2002 10:01

Orange Fuzzy

This kind of atrocity couldn't have happened if We the People were allowed to execise our Second Ammendment rights.

This is why the government wants us disarmed.


ho ho

It's EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to sue them -- it will show the city that they cannot arbitrarily shut down proteststs. It will make national news, and it will show the country that the news media are full of lies.



next march/demonstration is to the pratt house in new york! following that march, we go to the rockefeller plaza. the people must let the wanna be controllers know the cat is out of the bag! what is happening to humanity is a carefully orchestrated effort by the dynastic banking families through their "seemingly" unrelated fronts. it's over!! we fight for our freedom now!!!!

Children should be safe at protests 28.Aug.2002 10:48

ho ho

>> When I see the pictures of the father and his child, it occurs to me that the father, not the police, allowed this to happen.


THIS IS BULLSHIT. This allows the police to determine who can come to a protest and who can't. That's contrary to the First Amendment.

If you still don't get it, which word didn't you understand?

a little defensive 28.Aug.2002 11:34


obviously struck a nerve with that dad who can't understand what kids are doing at home instead of being at a daycare.
you know your kids don't wanna wake up at 7:30 am, hurried thru breakfast blurry-eyed, usually yelled at before they are fully awake because of all of the stess of the rush. there is something fundamentally wrong about waking up a sleeping infant and hurrying a toddler through a meal. only to be carted off to a place where they are really nothing special, kind of an inconvenience to the underpaid, overworked, poor and struggling people who are usually hired to watch them. then, picked up by tired parents, fed something colorful from a box, watch some tv and off to bed so you can do it all over again tomorrow. that's just the way it is right? and they are just gonna have to get used to it.

well to many of you who i can tell are not parents, or at least not the primary care-giver to a demanding and growing little chickee. it is a full time baby. let me tell you. i should know. i typle all in lower case because i'm against capitalism but also because i have a baby attached to the boob right now as i sit here verily typing. and i two year old still at the breast to boot.

as a voice of an experienced nurturer of many children- not just my own. let me fill you in on some things kids want more than your pity, toys, amusements, and assorted disney movies.
kids want to eat evry hour or so. they want a nap when they get tired. they expect to be safe from harm from people who are bigger than them. they want to breast-feed until they are 3 or 4. it's true. they want to be nude. they want to yell and bang and make noise and run around. they have a right not to be strapped down and sedated. they have a right not to be locked into a kid factory rather than be included. they want their mamas and dads and other people who love them around them 24-7. the needs decrease as they grow older, but- i still want my mama and gramma and aunties and i'm pissed as hell that the state got em working at gas stations 40 hours a week. we need em. i wish they would have gotten more respect as the valued parents they were.
and to the other guy who say parents have the right to put their kids in daycare, you have the right toleave yourkids with a teen-ager who only gives a shit because you pay her $2.50 an hour so she can go clothes shopping. does that mean you should? who's watching your kids? or do you even have any? and where were you when these babies in portland were getting pepper-sprayed by big men?

i have to agree with the street medic who warns people of violence toward vulnerable innocents. you would think the cops would care. some do. they are usually the quiet cops who turn away when someone is getting hurt. they do us no good. just like i tell my eight yrar-old daughter, yes, pedestrians have the right of way but that makes no difference when they hit you. i do not mean this to tell people to stay away from protests. i believe they are valuable for education and unity. i'm just saying don't expect the cops not to hurt little people because it is wrong. they are not fighting for right they are fighting for might. they operate an "at all costs" mentality and are completely controlled by command from opn high. they are in no capacity to function as feeling individuals in this role as riot cops.
because we interfere with their "economic security" we have been labeled "enemy combatants" and they are busy convincing the brainwashed that this justifies suspending our rights as humanbeings.

LibsRScum is a coward 28.Aug.2002 11:40

Jim Neely

Sue! If you havent read or heard about Judi Bari, do so. We can win. In USA people like you and I have power. we all have the power to file a lawsuit. gather evidence and witnesses, (photo evidence is taken seriously, witnesses usually are not) file a lawsuit. get a statement from the ER that treated your children. Police departments need money, and if you take their money away you will change their behavior. when you win your case, donate some of your gains to causes you believe in, WHENEVER POSSIBLE USE YOUR ENEMY'S OWN RESOURCES AGAINST HIM. Just one more point, LibsRScum is the real coward here. If you are truly brave, LibsRScum, post your actual name, like i have. I am a resident of Atlanta GA, and would love to meet you LibsRScum, and talk over your political views face to face. Come on down from Virginia whenever you feel up to it.

Ridiculous. 28.Aug.2002 13:12

marie mazza1998@hotmail.com

Regardless of what your views are on taking children to protests, people have a right to protest, they have the right to take their children with them trusting that their rights will be respected.. Peaceful protestors should not be injured unneccassarily with pepper spray, never mind helpless children. This is sick, and so is anyone who condones this behaviour. A police uniform is not an exemption from laws against child abuse. I am sorry that your family was put through this.

2 sides to every argument 28.Aug.2002 14:19

hopelessly neutral

Has anyone bothered to hear the other side of the argument? LIke what is the police version of the story? I am not saying one is right and one is wrong....just seems like everyone is very quick to jump to the side of the victim without hearing all the evidence first.

Some advice 28.Aug.2002 15:19

Bias commentater

Bias crime occurs when a crime not only hurts one vicitm, but silences the point-of-view of a large group of people. Anyone hurt at the protest, or who feels that their civil rights were abridged should contact the Bias Crimes investigators at (503)825-0434. Insist that the bias crime against you be counted in the monthly statistics, even if the bias crime suspect was a police officer. Even some IRC members who came as observers were pepper-sprayed, so maybe in the future, they might be less biased towards the police.

case law, excessive force police,pepper spray 28.Aug.2002 18:19

citizen7 @att.net

I got my pc (mysword) after it was used on me for torture. a 300 lb cop was kneeling on my neck, my left arm was broken, cuffs were on tight....then I got it point blank. the whole can. then into a squad, they turned up the heat too. My mistake was keeping my back to them the whole time.

there are rules for cs use.(see usmc almar 305/98) If you would use it the way it was used on me, it would be a dangerous weapon.(mn.ct of appeals c8-98-1688) st of mn vs. eliason. and people v.elliot, No. 4-97-0802 ... Il.4th dist and r.islnd. bill 99--s0044 and 9th us #97-30383

It can cause death and injury. long term affects are known for workers handling its raw material. It is labeled as a hazardous chemical. ncmedicaljournal.com/smith-ok.htm

lalonde v county of riverside #98-55887 has survived 9th dist.appeals court. #96-3539 in the 8th circuit where an inmate was sprayed. it was his appeal. J.samuels

go after their training. if they are trained, their indifference. wear goggles and breathe smart. The stuff can burn so dont smoke. it is not water soluble. I have wondered if vaseline would shield the skin. wet down clothing. carry plenty.

The images were powerful. each made media.corp out as the liars they are. we the people are going to get it right up the ass. dont let bush keep the 2 citizens in stir. The way they went after padilla shows their intent.

did the cops use r.bullets as reported?? what to do for that........................next

Protesters Without A Cause 28.Aug.2002 20:45


As I watched police attempt to disperse those protesting the arrival of President Bush, who came to Oregon for a fund-raising event, to pitch his plan for more forest logging to help reduce the amount of out-of-control wildfires, and, of course, the Iraq plan, one thought went through my mind — what a waste of completely good pepper spray. If you were one of the protesters, I mean that in a good way. You shouldn't have been gassed. As a matter of fact, you shouldn't have been there.

In some ways, tear gas and pepper spray lend credibility to the protester. As the pepper-afflicted protester is being dragged off by one of his friends, who remains unaffected by the pepper spray because he had the foresight to wear the safety goggles he swiped from wood shop his senior year, the sprayed protester resembles Jimmy Swaggart during his "I have sinned" speech. The crying, red eyes, and apparent helplessness garner sympathy from some. Sympathy is only worthy of those who are fighting for a just cause, even if it's one we may not agree with, and for those for whom freedom of speech isn't a one-way street on the map of justice.

Pepper spray and tear gas should be reserved only for those real protesters who have a true beef, not for a bunch of college punks who blew off classes and a shower who, along with 40-year-old "protester-for-hire" fleabags, decide to kill an afternoon annoying normal people. Traditional crowd control methods should be used for these people. A kick to the shins or a light wrist-flicked baton upside the head usually does the trick with these types. Anything that doesn't leave any outward injuries that the protester can use to gain sympathy for his or her movement, whatever it is. The only way the baton method is bad is that, sometimes, one of the covey of quail that is nesting in the protester's beard will be injured or killed, and then you've got a crop of angry animal rights hairballs on your hands.

Three of the more recent protests in the news have concerned logging in the northwestern United States; anti-war "Bush is a terrorist" chanters in California who are against any measure of self-defense, including deodorant; and some Norwegians who couldn't ski their way to California for all the "down with everything" festivities. The latter decided instead to stay home and protest the new "McAfrika" sandwich being sold by McDonald's in Norway. Why are they protesting it? Because the name of the burger is apparently insensitive to the starving in Africa. As if somebody in Africa is reading the morning edition of the Zimbabwe Bugle and saying to a friend, "Hey Kwame, the McDonald's in Oslo is being insensitive to our plight."

When a cause is manufactured around the whims of the perpetually offended, it's not a real cause. The fact is, in this country, we really haven't had a good reason to protest in quite a while. I'm talking about real protest, not the "Dutiful Middle Class for Lower Taxes" type groups. Though I am a charter member of the DMCLT, I'll be the first to admit that we're not exactly a radical political movement. Minor squabbling aside, the last decade hasn't seen a significant reason for protest.

From the 50's all the way through the 80's, people really knew how to, and had a reason to, protest. Whether or not the method of protest was effective, at least there was a solid foundation on which the ideal was built. Segregation, nuclear proliferation, Vietnam, the horrendous stagflation of the Carter years (so disliked was Jimmy that even rabbits attacked him), knocking down the Berlin Wall, et al, were all causes that many could, and did, either back or protest.

Whenever there's no good reason to complain, the forever ticked-off fall back to the two default positions on the protest dial — deforestation/rain forest issues, and anti-war. In Bush's western swing they had both of those things to whine about in one convenient visit. In either case, their logic doesn't hold water, but thanks to the pepper spray, their eyes do, and that's what gets the coverage and helps give air time to empty arguments.

Those of us who embrace freedom are all for a good, intellectually honest protest. Protest is a part of what began the creation of this great country. Protest is what I'm doing right now. Frivolous protests, over time, bring about a "boy who cried wolf" attitude from onlookers, and those who have real beefs should not applaud it. By the time it's your turn, maybe nobody will be listening — except the guys with the tear gas and pepper spray.

What you to these little ones.... 29.Aug.2002 00:01


I would just like to say to the parents of these children that my father took me to a peacefull protest in the sixties to see Dr King. So you did nothing wrong in attending with your children a peacefull protest, unfortunately the violence your children suffered at the hands of Portland's police force is disturbing. To those who put blame upon you, and hide behind the flags of patriotism, authority, or even religion just remember a lesson that was taught 2000 years by the son a carpenter who told those who would chase away children away from things grown-up,
Mark - Chapter 10:13-14
13. People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them.
14. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."
To bad Bush who claims to have been reborn and espouses Christian beliefs does not even have a hint on the beliefs he so loudly proclaims.
To those of you in the far right one day we will meet our maker hopefully you have become as one these little ones, and have treated them as Jesus would have.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum 29.Aug.2002 04:16

From_Davis pcernea@ucdavis.edu

Given the facts in the article, it all boils down to this. The dad would've been wrong in taking the child to the protest were it natural to expect the police to act violently towards the children present. After all, if you stick flesh in fire it is natural to have the flesh receive a burn, so it would be wrong to stick your child's hand in a fire.

Then by deduction, those who argue that it was the father's fault to take the child to the protest are essentially saying it is natural for a cop to act violently towards a child. They say it is the rule, not the exception!

That is interesting. I would expect only someone on the farthest left, who bears the utmost suspicion towards cops and law in general, to make such an assertion--that cops by nature hurt children! It seems like a ridiculous assertion to me. But here are people at least some of whom I assume are on the right wing, who wish to remove the blame from the cops (or at least the bulk of the blame) and place it on the parent. Well, of course a cop that naturally hurts children with no free will thrown into the matter cannot be judged for it! Can we judge a bear for eating a salmon?

Someone in fact made a comparison that strengthens my point. They likened the dad's taking his son to a protest with cops present like taking his son to an active lava flow. Are cops so malicious? Are cops fountains of lava? Are they there to spray chemicals in children's eyes?

I for one believe that all people, cops included, are not malicious towards their own species by nature. I believe it is some form of conditioning, some letting go of reason and compassion. Moreover, I believe that cops are here to protect us--otherwise we have no use for them! Would you not expect your children to be MORE safe when there are a bunch of policemen present?

What frightens me most is that if it truly becomes the case where the parent was wrong in taking his child to the protest--where cops are by nature malevolent, where they exist only to oppress, where it is right and reasonable to fear them and not to draw comfort from their presence--then we are in a dystopia, some projection of hell on earth, something Orwellian and sad.

May it never turn out that way. May the people who argue the dad was at fault never be right. May it theoretically, at least, be safe to do as the government advertises--have a peaceful protest without getting pepper-sprayed. And if some cops make a mistake, let them somehow repay their debt to society so that the system does not degenerate into chaos.

Oversea Opinions 30.Aug.2002 03:28

Nova katastrof@suomi24.fi

I don't have kids, but I guess if I had, I wouldn't have taken them to The Protest. I'd rather kept them clear away of the whole US, an myself too. Actually, I've sworn kind of oath not stepping inside US borders without an assault rifle. (Twisted humor: I don't own a gun, but I'm in a military reserve, and if at te time of mobilization I'd use assault rifle as my primary weapon. Figure the rest...)

More seriously, all kind of people, minors too, should have the right to attend and witness non-violent demonstrations and protests. So I'm not blaming parents, nor will I in future. But I'd still advice you to keep the kids out of trouble. NOTE: You might try to organize demos for "kids only", "families only", etc. But in an all-out-protest one should prepare to the worst (and I mean exactly that). "Sunrise"'s "One street medic's opinion" is rather close to my point.

To those box-raised excuses for a 'sapiens' species, who think chemicals is the first/best way to control crowds: Police should use waterhoses first, before gas, sprays or batons (let alone rubber bullets). Cold water, if possible, first only to soak, later (if necessary) to push. And never NEVER aim ANY methods randomly or collectively, but ALWAYS to the exact troublemakers, avoiding innocents at any costs. Yes, I said any costs. The police are (or should be) paid for taking insults, injury and dirt on themselves, and prepared for it, and equipped for it. They should ALWAYS turn the other cheek few times before acting, and start with mildest methods possible.

You live in a police state. I'm not telling you how long it has been like that, but I ask you how long it's going to last?


To BushRocks 30.Aug.2002 05:01


And you are obviously a 17 year old with anger issues.....

Share it with the world. 30.Aug.2002 08:51

Billy B. pizzant@hotmail.com

You did nothing wrong by taking your children to something that we all have the right to do as Americans. I think you did the right thing by trying to leave when things started to go wrong. The story of what happened to you is becoming all too common, and that's why you should tell the world what happened. Also don't ever let your children forget, and for the youngest, make sure you tell them all about it. It will be our children's responsibility to change the world one-day. Let's hope they do a better job than those who came before them, and give them the love and support they will need to make the RIGHT decisions.

Later Dayz,
Billy B.

Peaceful majority will prevail 30.Aug.2002 10:10

Canadian Observer

Thanks to those who continue to assert their rights even in the face of the police state in the US. Canadians appreciate it. Though morons have their right to yammer incessantly about conforming to backward authoritarians that should never stop real citizens from working for peace and freedom. Don't let the vocal minority silence the peaceful majority!

Concered Reader From the South 30.Aug.2002 10:12


So, according to all those who blame the parent, the following is holding true:

By placing fully armored and armed police at any protest I can now scare all "responsible parents" into staying home? The comments above seem to indicate that because the establishment has risen to this level of intimidation, that it is obviously unsafe for us to participate in our right to free speech or assembly based on the simple fact that some of us may or may not be concerned about the safety of our children? What good to you accomplish staying home to protect your children? Should all parents actively disengage from participation in peaceful protests because of this? Sounds like the establishment just effectively reduced the amount of "noise" they'll hear by scaring you into staying hom.

Come on! So you are agreeing NOT to protest and illustrate your views because the police (which DO work for you, by the way) intimidate you? Sounds to me like they've already "won" in regards to some posters on this forum.

Trolls and fre-pers: go away 30.Aug.2002 10:38

Herman WOuk

Why do all these shrill dumbells even come to this site? There are many intelligent informed opinions here and of course our country has always encouraged free expression and debate but who wants to hear this reactionary junk from Johnny Lunchbucket and Susie Housecoat? I mean do lefties go out there and bait the "conservative" discussions (undoubtedly)

To all you Bushies and agent provacateurs (look it up): I think you're out numbered here, please go back to watching WWF, COPS and the anna nicole show.

Required reading: Parenti, Zinn, Chomsky and the rest.

I suppose this is my opinion. 30.Aug.2002 18:35


I have a 2 month old little girl. She is an american citizen and has a right to be at a demonstration to petition her government for regress of grievance. Amongst many other rights. I was not there. I live in Napa, California. I fully support the actions of these dedicated and concerned parents. Our families are just about all we have in current times. You have done your children an honorable justice in allowing them their rights. In allowing them to be exposed. Shelter is a curse in todays society. This post is intended as a pleading. I beg of all who were present to support these people in the pursuit of justice. I printed out a flyer with *THE* picture and your account and have every intention of spreading it as far and wide as I can. I wish you and your children the best, and hope that those accused will pay dearly. The question at this point is what are WE as a community, that reaches farther than PDX alone, going to do about the increasing injustice that is occuring at demonstrations? This is the most disgusting, horrid, wretched, soulless action that has taken place to date. The murder of adult protesters pales in comparison. They have had enough of us and now target our children. Children that can't help but turn the other cheek. Anyone who didnt respond to this incident with anything short of maniacal rage inspires the deepest doubt in me.

Portland Cops 30.Aug.2002 23:00

Gary Gunnels

Anyone who doubts the thug potential of the the Portland Police hasn't been reading the Oregonian for the past twenty years.


Enough of you 31.Aug.2002 23:36

Paul B

Enough of you voted for that smirking criminal to make it possible for his fellow criminals to get him installed in the Whitehouse and now look where are you are going! Surely there were enough sound minds warning you about this before the election but no..... you all had to get hung up about sex between two consenting adults. Too much religion for dummies, thats your problem as a nation. Someone shouts "Jesus" and your national critical thinking capacity turns to mush. Wake up guys, You've all been fooled big time by your Republican politicians and their (mostly) lapdog press and now the whole world is being pulled to an inpasse like the post war generation has never seen.


Children 31.Aug.2002 23:43

Paul B

Wake up you idiots. The issue is not whether someone is a bad parent for taking their kids to what SHOULD be a peaceful event, it is the police who behave like they are there to protect a third world dictator and his cronies. Oh, wait...thats why they were there. Oh well, enough of you voted for him to make it possible for the GOP spreme court to do the rest. Enjoy this low point in your history

you say you want a revolution? 01.Sep.2002 00:13

in a nutshell, disgusted

No, it is not safe to bring small children to protests, that IS the problem. I'd love to overthrow this whole fucking government system--it's pissing me off. Every aspect of our lives, from the medicalization and capitalization of childbirth and breastfeeding to the conformist agenda of our school system, to the capitalist bullshit we have to claw our way through to survive, is all driven by money, money, money, and I'm ready to overthrow the govt....oh, but I can't, I have kids, nevermind.

Short and sweet 01.Sep.2002 05:37


People blaming the victim in this case are stupid. Enough said about that.

Kids or no kids, the police acted criminally. It is clear from the photos that the police are in no danger of resistence as they hose down the people with pepper spray. That is inexcusable.

Blaming the parents for their kids just serves to distract from the real issue, which is police brutality.

I'm sure it's been said, but I didn't have time to read mor than half the comments here.

88 01.Sep.2002 06:28


Some of the comments on this board are truly amazing. I never realized just how many very ignorant people there are in this country.

This situation is a very graphic warning of things to come. Bush has hidden protestors since his 'inauguration'. Our democracy was attacked by a vote of 5-4. Whether you voted for Al Gore or Bush, it doesn't matter. YOU LOST YOUR RIGHTS AT THE MOMENT A PARTISAN USSC RULED. Every single vote cast in this country was negated by that vote. Every single citizen should be completely horrified by what has happening, is happening, and will happen because of the USSC. Even if your boy 'won'.

IMPEACH the USSC. Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. And throw the rest of the extreme right wing the hell our of OUR white house. Allow NO life time judicial nominations from this administration.

Finally, thank you Oregon for standing up to this Unelected Fraud and his minions like the religiously insane Ashcroft.

Why are robo cops not wearing name tags!!!!! 01.Sep.2002 07:59


Isn't there a law against cops not being identified by name tags clearly visible on their person? I do not see name tags on any of these officers. This might reduce uncalled for behaviors as well as help with civil lawsuits which you will no doubt be filing soon. If you cannot identifiy officer, perhaps city will be liable for failure to identify and /or failure to protect you from illegal force apparently sanctioned by the city...

Welcome To Our Nightmare 01.Sep.2002 19:33

Negative_Zero Negativezer0@hotmail.com

Im a tender age of 15, but my mind is open and I'm blinded by the opinions of others. This is what I have to say.
Bringing your children to a protest wasnt a bad idea, you just chose the wrong one. I feel its a good opertunity for children of all ages to see what Portland... more said America and the government really is like. Portland isn't horrible, I was born and raised here. Our police however, is another story. I don't blame the police though, not at all.... some have their own personality, cruel and heartless... But in my opinion, the police, all over the country are corrupted by the government, more like... George W. Bush. Which leads me to another case. In all of history, in which I HAVE studied... I have never had to been controlled by a more horrible person. He's a bad president, a worse person. In his speaches he left out some topic sentances... one for example would be "Today I helped kill million of innocent people." I don't think September 11th would have been avoided if Bush wasnt president... But I'm saying it would have been taken better care of. Bush had sent bombs over to who he thinks is our "enemy". Afganestan is NOT our enemy... the people are NOT our enemy. The taliban is. Why are bombs being sent to kill the innocent people? Does he know he is putting everyone in danger? He says the future is in the hands of our generation... But what future will there be after he's through with the present? Because of the fact I am a Punk, people automatically consider me an Anarchist. I'm not an anarchist, I'm not anti-government. I am Anti-Bush. And bush thinks he has power... but wait until the people of our nation over power him! Thank you for reading all of my pissed off comments. And maybe someone will realize.. whats the world coming to when someone as young as 15 thinks all of this?

a history of brutality 02.Sep.2002 03:45

gerard winstanley

first of all, i would like to add my sympathy to the father and child, but i find something a bit strange, many posters write here as if this is a new process, its as if some of youy are suffering from historical amnesia. The US govt/establishment has often used extreme measures on its own citizens: during the lock outs at the steel and car plants in the Thirties, the Watts riots in the sixties, the Kent State University shooting of anti-war students in 1970 and so on...


Welcome to Nazi America! 02.Sep.2002 09:36

glad I'm not American

ok, have the signs not been coming for a while? All these anti-terrorist laws that your war-monger president is producing? England has been the victim of frequent terrorist attacks for the last 20 years. but considering you claim to be the land of the free, we have a hell of a lot more actual freedom than you guys. And incidentally, no-one believes that this war in Iraq is for moral reasons- Bush just wants to put someone in power who'll sell him cheap oil. We will *not* allow Tony Blair to send our soldiers to die for the financial gain of a country that many of us despise.
I do feel for the family involved, and have much respect for them for being prepared to stand up for what they believe in.
But as for the majority of Americans- you guys are the ones that gave that scum power...

yaaaaawn! 02.Sep.2002 17:26

glad I'm not American

>Hey bitch, you would be eating sauerkraut on a regular >basis if it were not for a bunch of "war-mongering" >Americans,

well, thank you for that intelligent response. It's people like you that make America a laughing stock- if anyone dislikes your country, it's because they're just jealous or stupid...god forbid you consider *why* no-one likes Americans...

>Typical, diarrhea-of-the-mouth response from a piece of >ungrateful Eurotrash.

With debating skills like that, I bet you win all the arguments in the playground...

>You're a moron. You don't even know what you're talking >about.

Don't I feel silly now...

>Oh yeah! You have had problems with the IRA

funded by Americans.

>and your Government used that as an excuse to put in place >over one MILLION surveillance cameras in public on the >strength of the IRA threat which as of today has not >caught ONE, single IRA Terrorist.

erm, actually, yes, it did...
but the point is, your government is doing some terrible things, and people are slated for protesting???

>I'm not even going into a long drawn out thrash of how >shitty your country is now. A once great country where you >cannot even defend yourself in public or in your own home >or you will be prosecuted by your lovely Government.

Sorry, are you talking about the Uk or America here?

>You're not free, you blind, obedient asshole, you just >like your chains.

I never said I was free. I just said that in comparison, we have more freedom in practice than Americans.

>They just prosecuted an old man for shooting a burglar in >his own home. Some freedom, shove that freedom in the best >part of you, Mate.

There is *never* a situation where violence is acceptable. In the case you're talking about, the man shot the burglar as he was running away- this means it was an attack and not self-defence.

>Yeah, yeah, yeah, Bush, Bush, Bush, oil, oil, oil...this >is so old. Get a new Writer.

Again, your superior intellect and debating skills leave me speechless...

>Furthermore, your SAS have already been fighting with us >in Afghanistan, and you're not going to "allow" it? You're >a fool.

At least in Afghanistan there was some pretence of doing it to eliminate a terrorist group who murdered innocent people.

>And, if you despise us, just remember this, my Limey >Friend, we kicked your ass out of this country over 200 >years ago.

And how exactly does this have relevance to this discussion? Oh of course, I'm just jealous...

>But you will sure run to us when the next European Monster >crawls out of his cave. History has proven that.

Yeah, well done, your country eventually did come along and help...
Personally, I'm more worried about what Bush is going to do next.

Cessation . . . 02.Sep.2002 20:13

Archangel Michael

"Yeah, hey God? Mikey here. You know, I don't think this whole Creation thing is working out on that place. Why? Well, there's so much hate, distrust, tyranny, and evil going on down there. Yeah yeah, I know You see and know all, but c'mon, look at all of what's going on. I bet the only people that you Rapture will be just the children. It's just a feeling, Big Guy. All those that claim to worship You do deplorable things to children...and those so-called police spraying children with this pepper spray. I know, they probably shouldn't have brought their kids to a demonstration, peaceful or otherwise, but c'mon, you don't shoot pepper spray at somebody who's holding a child! It's just...just...evil! And incompetent! I don't think anybody is worth saving, really. You should just make the whole place go away....save the children, of course, but everybody else should get recycled...I dunno, what do You think You should do with them? I bet they'd make great fodder for the animals in the other solar system You have just a few million light years from here... Well thank you, I thought it was a good idea myself...You can always start over, make a new and improved Earth...instead of creating man and woman, maybe You could just stick with animals...can't go wrong there....well, I have always wondered what You were doing with the platypus...Ha! I just knew it was a practical joke...oh, don't be so hard on Yourself, mankind wasn't a joke too...okay, wasn't MUCH of a joke..."

Cessation... 02.Sep.2002 20:20

Archangel Michael

"Yeah, hey God? Mikey here. You know, I don't think this whole Creation thing is working out on that place. Why? Well, there's so much hate, distrust, tyranny, and evil going on down there. Yeah yeah, I know You see and know all, but c'mon, look at all of what's going on. I bet the only people that you Rapture will be just the children. It's just a feeling, Big Guy. All those that claim to worship You do deplorable things to children...and those so-called police spraying children with this pepper spray. I know, they probably shouldn't have brought their kids to a demonstration, peaceful or otherwise, but c'mon, you don't shoot pepper spray at somebody who's holding a child! It's just...just...evil! And incompetent! I don't think anybody is worth saving, really. You should just make the whole place go away....save the children, of course, but everybody else should get recycled...I dunno, what do You think You should do with them? I bet they'd make great fodder for the animals in the other solar system You have just a few million light years from here... Well thank you, I thought it was a good idea myself...You can always start over, make a new and improved Earth...instead of creating man and woman, maybe You could just stick with animals...can't go wrong there....well, I have always wondered what You were doing with the platypus...Ha! I just knew it was a practical joke...oh, don't be so hard on Yourself, mankind wasn't a joke too...okay, wasn't MUCH of a joke..."

Children are future citizens 03.Sep.2002 14:17


When I was a little kid my mom took me along to anti-war protests. She taught me that I should speak up for what I believe. Even little kids are smart enough to ask questions about what's going on.

People who say kids should stay home are raising kids who won't know how to be citizens when they grow up.


To the self-righteous pig with an attitude. 05.Sep.2002 17:03


It's not often that I find someone so blatantly incompetent to formulate a rational thought or construct a sound argument and also so pomped up on his/her own limited perception that it makes me cringe.

Hey, Spooky, I know it's lonely there in your mom's basement and I know you're frustrated because you can't keep a girlfriend (maybe one of them left you for an englishman?) especially once they find out about all of the stalking abortion clinics and weekly militia meetings but do you think that maybe, now this is just a maybe, but maybe your grotesque outlook has something to do with how unhappy you are and how you go online with a flag up your ass and a chip on your shoulder pretending to know something about anything while hurling useless facts you dress up to look like "points" and merely emulating the terribly negative impression that the rest of the world has of us U.S. citizens as being little more than a bunch of loud-mouthed Yosimite Sams? Your attitude makes your credibility somewhere beneath Ann Coulter's and your arguments somewhat weaker. You could be right, but unfortunately you're just a self-rightous pompous ass consumed in his own self-loathing and helpless to projecting it in every sentence he types. Let's see how that goes down at the next clan rally, jerk.

Who Is Responsible? 08.Sep.2002 15:32

Dan Berman easygenius@aol.com

What a sad list of comments. Not all of them.
But go back through them. Notice how many of the
people who curse and verbally attack the person who commented that small kids should not come to a protest...........failed to list their names.
It is you self-aggrandizing folks, IMHO, who are the cowards and who split the movement apart. Let's not
even worry whether you are right or wrong on this issue.
If you have any maturity and any common sense, you will realize that you rarely, if ever, change a person's opinion by that variety of name-calling. Maybe you get
to feel self-righteous, etc.....but what have you accomplished by spewing. The people who have the opinion that it is irresponsible to bring an infant to a protest also said they thought the police action was inexcusable.
Well, apparently for many of you it is much more fun, and exciting to verbally attack such people. And to attack anyone you see as "privileged."
Think about how offended you are by my calling you self-aggrandizing.....think about how offended you are simply by my disagreeing with what you have done and taking you to task.........and then imagine I call you
a facist, nazi, asshole, etc. Boy, we can really have a dialogue now, right?
It is my opinion that it will take a lot of personal effort beyond showing up at protests to get things done....it's more fun to break Starbuck's windows than not......but how many minds do you bring over to the movement, and how many do you solidify in their beliefs about what the Right Wings and the media propagandize as "out-of-control anarchists".
If you wish to serve the movement, you don't get to
rant and rave at people who are already part-way in your corner.....you don't get to simplify others' arguments as being solely based upon privilege or being-out-of-touch. Instead, IMHO, you need to approach them with appreciation that they are already
reading alternative media, are engaged enough to share their energy, and tell them clearly and rationally why you disagree with them.
And you need to think about why so many of you are afraid to list your names.......when you're not even attacking "the man", but a person who posted to this message list. Could it possibly be that you are ashamed of your behavior? I call your behavior lazy, childish, counter-productive, and destructive of creating and building the very movement you purport to support.
As to the parents.....thank you for a very civilly written explanation of going through total terror.......as a parent I know nothing has ever touched me to the core more than my child's health being jeopardy. I will forward your story to everyone I can think of who might become engaged in demanding justice.
And my thanks to everyone on both sides of the
children should or should not be brought along debate who discussed and continue to discuss the matter civilly.
So much of the U.S. population, IMHO are cattle. We should never tolerate intolerable behavior from anyone, whether they declare themselves our friend or enemy.
But we can not afford to alienate those who are on our side.....because we have a strong disagreement with them........for those who want to accomplish anything in the face of the daunting money/power/greed/brutality of "the system", it's all about coalition building.

I'm Sorry 08.Sep.2002 16:35

Spencer princesswithout_acountry@yahoo.com

Im sorry that this happened to you. Although the police are here to help us, not all of them do their job in the correct form. I am 13-years-old, and have known for a long time that not all "good guys" are what they are made out to be. I would like to offer my condolences and the thought and fact that not all policemen are bad. Please tell your children this and anybody else who might need to hear it. My uncle was a police officer and a good one at that. Think of most police officers as my uncle. With every bowl of oatmeal there come lumps and I'm sorry to say that our justice system has "lumps" but we do and I am thouroughly and completely sorry.

My love and best regards,

Ironic 10.Sep.2002 06:39

Isn't it?

Isn't it ironic that it takes a 13-year-old to show the grown-ups how to conduct themselves as adults?

My sympathies to the babes and their parents. Everybody who says 'they shouldn't have been there' are handing their freedom over on a plate. What's next?

"They shouldn't have an opposing opinon to the regime? It's asking for trouble."

Hitler is laughing his ass off.

Honesty 13.Sep.2002 08:52

Professor of Semantics

Answer the following question honestly:

What unparalleled level of monumental arrogance does it take to presume to speak for 'the rest of America'?

The mess was created by a deliberate pepperspray attack on a defenceless child. You're saying it was the child's (or the parents) fault for being in the way. You're an idiot.

You're the same kind of idiot who blames rape victims for being provocative. The same kind of idiot who suggests that victims of muggings are at fault for having the audacity to walk the streets at night.

Exactly the same kind of idiot that will continue to pour scorn on the complaints of others until one day you'll be the victim.

Then you won't be able to get enough of your own whining.

Now I'm really frightened 13.Sep.2002 16:53


The thing that scares me more than the article itself are the responses to it. "I have seen the enemy..."

You Have The Right To Take Your Kids Anywhere 17.Sep.2002 00:26


I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you and your family.

I understand exactly how something like that can happen.

I live in Vancouver (Canada) and i take my 3 year old son and 1 year old daughter to every demonstration i go to.

As citizens and as human beings we deserve to be treated with respect. We can not allow the state/police or anyone in power to just push us around like that.

I have been threatened a couple of times by the police that if i don't leave they will take my children away. They try to use fear against us. Then the media backs the police claims then we get every idiot at home with a remote complaining about how terrible these protesters are, they never spend two seconds thinking about the police, the gear they wear and what the police trully represent.

You did the right thing. Even after reading your story i will still take my kids to demonstration because we have a right to not be attacked and if we don't believe in our rights then they will just dissapear.

Keep up the struggle and i encourage every parent to bring their kids to show the police and everyone else at home that it's the system and its security guards (police) that bring violence to our lives.

In solidarity,

Wait...What happened 10.Oct.2002 01:29


So first of all, you're dumb enough to bring an infant to a protest. Then, when the police are trying to clear an area you don't leave, even though you have your kids with you. When the police finally start peppering people in the crowd, you run up to the police line holding your infant, and demand that they let you, a protester, through the police line, and argue with the officers when they don't let you through. And you wonder why they sprayed you?

Dutch success 25.Oct.2002 04:21


I want to wish the protesting American people success. Go on and do not stop protesting, because there are fascists police forces. Good luck, Chris

Unreal 23.Mar.2003 22:55

Dee Doe spaz_mot_tick_tick_tick@yahoo.com

Why wouldn't it be okay to take children to a peaceful protest?
Why is it okay for cops to spray people just because they are outraged and yelling?
Why is it bad for people to show how they feel?
Why does this family have to suffer the harsh words of some of the people here?
It should be safe.
This isn't the 60's.
This isn't right.
I thought we had come a long way from that and it was acceptable for all people of all views to be able to voice their opinions without being chastised.
Where am I?

Other Options 14.Jun.2003 01:54

Stu stu.baby@xtra.co.nz

As I sit here on the other side of the planet, reading the comments about who is an idiot and who should be sued and why were the kids there and what kind of person becomes a cop, I have one question to ask all of you who are so anti-bush and your current administration. Have you ever actually considered leaving the country? There are some pretty cool places around the world and if you are a decent person, you can actually leave the US. Give it some thought.

Portland Officers or Officer 14.Jun.2003 15:58

A police officer

Sorry to hear about the child. I find it sad that so many have a problem with an individual and then blame an entire group. If this officer did in fact spray your child, he did this, most likely, against training and police policy. One officer did this, not the whole department. Stereotyping groups is never a smart idea. It's easy to hate when you stereotype and consider people as a group and hate never accomplishes anything good. All police officers are not bad, contrary to the view points of many people in this forum. If you took the time to get to know a police officer as a person, you might find your eyes opened a little more.

Seven years in law enforcement and I've never seen force used against a person that was not in reaction to the person's actions.

It amazes me that the majority of people go through life with no real problems from the police (aside from tickets) and yet a small minority of people seem to have daily problems with the police. Of course, it's the fault of the police.

Was there a lawsuit? 04.Aug.2003 01:48

Ashland Mama

I happened upon this incredible story of police brutality against children while researching for my trip to protest against Bush this month. I was unable to find more news re this case. Was a lawsuit filed? Is there a legal fund? I am sickened and outraged. Power to the Resistance!

From someone that used to be in the Service 08.Sep.2003 06:25


Hi, and first of all let me send prayers to you and your family. I have worked in the USA military and am still a military wife. I greatly love my country and I respect my goverment and all there rules, laws and regulations to keep us safe. I did not read all the posts as there are just to many. For those of you who said that the baby and children should not have been at that protest I believe you are WRONG! We as amiricans are fighting for everyones right to protest, wrather we agree with the protest or not. Our children do have a right to be there and to learn what a country is all about. That my friends is the freedrom of choice and without those freedoms we would not be the USA (The free country). Our military and police are put in place to protect and serve. They should have been making sure the people (and children) at the protest were being protected. Instead it sounds like they caused the harm. Please I beg you not to let your children believe this is the only way government works. Let our government the one who built this great country rectify what those stupid heartless few did and sue them. Show your children we have the right to fight (non violently) for our rights and that is what makes this country so great. In the mean time My family and I will fight to protect your rights. God Bless all.

I have a 3 month old and a 20 month old and could not imagine what I would do if this were me. I beg all of you to remember we are all Americans here and violence against each other will surly lead to our fall.

O man! Deffinetly the police's fault! 01.Oct.2003 13:38

Infant/peace lover

I deffinetly sympathize with you. Who the heck ever thought of blinding a young infant directly with pepper spray? I mean, is there no more mercy in this world?!! Not even with tha Big tough Police? What the hell has the world come to? I would just like to know wha kind of protest this was, that they would just go running around directly spraying people? INFANTS!!!!!! The poor baby! I mean, you're going to have to probably send him to the eye doctor more than anything for the rest of his life! The kid will go blid! Adults might be able to bear such brutatlity, but not baby kiddies!!! Who is going to pay for all that? Was that even a peaceful protest then? Maybe I do agree that you do not take your children to a protest, yet it depends on what type of protest it is, right? some one tell me. I'm just feeling sorry for the baby, if that was my kid....
Take care and keep fighting!

What is a pig ? 16.Aug.2004 23:44


Over the course of my life I've reached the following inescapable conclusions concerning pigs:

First, a pig is a member of what can only be characterized as the bilge of society. A pig is an individual possessed of a subnormal IQ and an overwhelming case of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Worse, a pig is a feckless sociopath, constantly on the prowl for its next fix of violence (perpetrated by the pig itself) or other adrenaline-squirting antisocial act. If the pig you encounter on the street wasn't wearing a blue suit and driving around in a weaponized car (at your expense), it would be trying to burglarize your home or business, rape your wife or daughter, or kill your son.

Why do we tolerate these bestial vermin in our society ? Why don't we as a people do the civilized thing and just euthanize them ? Because our "leaders" (here, think George Bush and John Ashcroft) regard the pig as a highly effective private body-guard service for control of the populace ; in other words, you and me. As Lyndon Johnson said about J. Edgar Hoover : "It's better to have him inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in." Unfortunately for you and me, we're outside the tent and we're being pissed on.

Our "leaders" have for too long perpetrated the "nice man in the blue suit" disinformation campaign on us. We as a nation have for too long been conditioned to regard the pig as a "hero" and a "public servant".

Contemplate the following words written by Thomas Jefferson in 1776 and which appear in the Declaration of Independence. If written today, these sentiments would probably be construed as High Treason, and Mr. Jefferson as a traitor :

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established,
should not be changed for light and transient causes... But, when
a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the
same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute
despotism, it is [the people's] right, it is their duty, to throw
off such government, and to provide new guards for their future

If anything qualifies as a train of abuses and usurpations, it is the shocking (but not surprising) story posted here, of a man and his wife and children viciously assaulted by a gauntlet of pigs.

When are we going to wake up and eradicate this evil ?

photos 16.Mar.2006 23:35


More photos of the aftermmath of police abuse