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anti-Grand Jury Rally this Tuesday (Aug 6th) 8:30am 1000 SW 3rd

Grand Jury is coming to portland on this tuesday. They've called one bitchin' forest activist to testify. She can face up to 6 months in jail if she fails to cooperate. We must come to support her. August 6th tuesday, 8:30am at 1000 SW 3rd Ave at the Mark O Hatfield courthouse.
Grand Jury is coming to portland on this tuesday. They've called one bitchin' forest activist to testify. She can face up to 6 months in jail if she fails to cooperate. We must come to support her. August 6th tuesday, 8:30am at 1000 SW 3rd Ave at the Mark O Hatfield courthouse.

homepage: homepage: http://www.cascadiaforestalliance.org
phone: phone: 503-241-4879
address: address: 1540 SE Clinton

Caution 03.Aug.2002 00:57

Todd

I fear that all the pieces are falling into place for violent repression. We should excercise caution, reason, and nonviolent protest. The prescence of federal sources may attempt to agitate protesters into inappropriate means of demonstrating and thereby link democratic nonviolent environmental activism with ecoterrorism, terrorism, and violent anarchists. This would be the perfect means to mobilize the [failing] buisness interests in the woods against public opinion. Sadly enough direct action is the only action voicing the desires of the majority, sad but not unsuprising or worth lamenting.

In otherwords lets play our cards right in the days to come, calm teenage angsty provocative protesting, and set in our heels for the long nonviolent haul.


Todd

So.... are you coming? 03.Aug.2002 07:31

lichen lichen@riseup.net

Well Todd are you coming? hmmm? Gonna bring you're non-violent placard that says Resist Grand Juries or Protect Civil Liberties. ? ? ? ? ? ?

http://www.cascadiaforestalliance.org
503-241-4879
1540 SE Clinton

Of course :) 03.Aug.2002 09:40

Todd

I'll be there come what may, I will not let the toned down modern version of the McCarthy trials intimidate and harress the community working to better our world. There may be consequences, but dissent is crucial to the containment of the tyrannies of our age.

Todd

consequences? 03.Aug.2002 11:09

lichen

like what? freedom and liberation?

.... 03.Aug.2002 19:47

Todd

I was more thinking repression from federal forces. The time is ripe for more crackdowns and a familiar way to gain wide condemnation for a normally well liked cause is cointelpro style framings. I would not be suprised to see mysterious black-blok look-a-likes instigating or participating in some sort of violence. This would give the grand jury the evidence they lack, justify repression of NGOs that get in the way of [bad] buisness, and allow violence against peaceful protesters.

On the other hand, more to your suggestion, should we avert, escape, or avoid such set-ups we may be able to further liberate social movements by standing up to the grand inquisitors. Community support against these neo-inquisitions (that may be overstated) would send a message.

Right now the ecoterrorists truly are the greatest danger to activists. That is not to say that I don't support their dedication, or revolt against the corporations etc, it is just that the extreme and reckless methods of such people endanger the work that the rest of us more legally inclined folks are trying to do.

Anyway :) Todd

To Each His Own 03.Aug.2002 20:54

Bobbie

Todd - You do it your way and I will do it my way but please DON'T TELL ME HOW TO DO IT! VIVA ALF and ELF

Bait 04.Aug.2002 11:42

Lucy P.

Todd, your suggestion to keep things (legal? nonviolent?) is fair. But the way you stated it isn't fair at all.

Scapegoating teens, anarchists, or anyone else is entirely uncalled for. I find your offhanded remark about teenagers completely offensive. Young adults and kids are an important part of our movement, just as senior citizens, twenty-somethings, or middle-aged folks are. I've seen just as many incidents at demonstrations where someone with gray hair has acted on what you call 'teen angst' as someone who's younger has. It's not out-of-control youth who 'thoughtlessly' destroy property, as you 'ecoterrorist' name-calling would imply, but rather it's people of many ages, with real reasons for their actions.

Whether you, or I, or the public at large agree with so-called acts of ecoterrorism is another matter entirely. Such acts remain well-thought-out, well-planned, and purposeful.

The feds will be at the demo Tuesday, and they're always looking for an excuse to make arrests or otherwise terrorize the crowd. So, of course, no one has planned any 'violent' actions for that demo. And I'm glad that I'll see you there showing your resistance with the rest of the crowd.

Live and let live 04.Aug.2002 12:00

Older and wiser

Todd
Your life will start to become much more simple once you realize that you are not the Master of the Universe.Do not lead,as others may not want to follow.Do not follow,as others may not want to lead.Simply walk together side by side with us.You are not responsible for the actions of others,you are only responsible for your own.The last thing we need is another white male telling us what to do,what to think,what to say,what to embrace,what to wear,what to feel or how to act.One more thing,males are not the only ones who show up at protests wearing black,women do too.Personally,I hope to see many different folks with my different beliefs and ideas from many walks of life all expressing themselves in a variety of different ways at this show of support for the activists event on Tuesday.
Do not fall into the control trap,leave that to the goverment.They do it so well.

Todd- Are you drunk? 04.Aug.2002 12:54

!Hecknomeansno!

Dear Todd,
You think that telling us how to think and act makes you some kind of force for social change? Because I don't. Sorry, I just can't compartmentalize the reality I see around me. I see a bunch of folks that are lacking in the capacity as individuals to govern their own lives. This lack of ability to think for, and support ourselves reflects our inability to create and support a revolutionary shift away from our culture of domination. This domination is part and partial of the exploited earth and her peoples. You echo this governance by lending it your voice. You are acting to disempower everyone that gives a damn enough to face their fear and really fight for a culture of freedom. I'm not saying that people like you don't have any valid criticisms of anarchists. What I am saying is that the strongest lie contains a measure of truth, and lies are what you speak. WAKE UP!!!

responce 2 04.Aug.2002 14:56

todd

Quoted from above
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Scapegoating teens, anarchists, or anyone else is entirely uncalled for. I find your offhanded remark about teenagers completely offensive. Young adults and kids are an important part of our movement, just as senior citizens, twenty-somethings, or middle-aged folks are. I've seen just as many incidents at demonstrations where someone with gray hair has acted on what you call 'teen angst' as someone who's younger has. It's not out-of-control youth who 'thoughtlessly' destroy property, as you 'ecoterrorist' name-calling would imply, but rather it's people of many ages, with real reasons for their actions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Firstly, I am a young college student, and I am not scapegoating teens. I was intending the teenage-angsty comment metaphorically, like when someone tells someone else they are acting childish or testosteron jokes etc.

Secondly, I am not targeting anarchists. Anarchists are as varied as their beliefs. I read a lot of anarcho-syndicalist literature, and though I am no self-proclaimed anarchist I think they have the right answers to a lot of things.

Part of what I love about the activist scene is the diversity. The ages, classes, races, etc contribute to the culture and unite us. I wasn't really targeting anyone, rather behavioral patterns, but I suppose some would want to criticize me for that too.

more confusion 04.Aug.2002 15:11

todd

Quote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Your life will start to become much more simple once you realize that you are not the Master of the Universe.Do not lead,as others may not want to follow.Do not follow,as others may not want to lead.Simply walk together side by side with us.You are not responsible for the actions of others,you are only responsible for your own.The last thing we need is another white male telling us what to do,what to think,what to say,what to embrace,what to wear,what to feel or how to act.One more thing,males are not the only ones who show up at protests wearing black,women do too.Personally,I hope to see many different folks with my different beliefs and ideas from many walks of life all expressing themselves in a variety of different ways at this show of support for the activists event on Tuesday.
Do not fall into the control trap,leave that to the goverment.They do it so well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have addressed most of these concerns above. In responce to the people wearing black. I usually associate forces of violent repression [cointelpro, fbi,cia] with men, which I will admit is sexist. I conceed that and revise my statement. I am still confused though. I wasn't talking about protestors, I was talking about undercover agent provocateurs... I weare black as well. Perhaps you missed it.

I also don't see what plurality of expression has to do with anything. Clearly just about everyone here is going to agree and support various mediums of protest. That doens't mean we support someone pulling guns on police. Some situations would put us in danger of physical harm for actions of others. For instancew at the Seattle WTO people condemned the violent actions of a minority for endangering the safety of the majority. I am not condoning this critique, but would you also say that these people were authoritarian white males trying to boss people around and playing the protest police? Or do you accept that there is a point at which "walking together side by side" makes one concerned at the actions of others? I am not saying that testosteron surges at protests are a danger of this sort, rather I am just responding to your rhetorical flourishes which, in my opinion, diverge in scope from the actuality of my previous comments.

To the allegations of alcohol... 04.Aug.2002 15:24

Todd

Quote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I see a bunch of folks that are lacking in the capacity as individuals to govern their own lives. This lack of ability to think for, and support ourselves reflects our inability to create and support a revolutionary shift away from our culture of domination. This domination is part and partial of the exploited earth and her peoples. You echo this governance by lending it your voice. You are acting to disempower everyone that gives a damn enough to face their fear and really fight for a culture of freedom. I'm not saying that people like you don't have any valid criticisms of anarchists. What I am saying is that the strongest lie contains a measure of truth, and lies are what you speak. WAKE UP!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

I admit I may be one of the people of whom you speak, because some of your comments don't make any sense to me.

How are people unable to govern their own lives? You must be using this in a rather loose sense. At best this is pure rhetorical flourish and not of much merit either. People can of course govern themselves, every anarchist knows it. Philosophical disputes circle around the method and content of governance. I feel that your comment is too vague and unspecific to address properly though I will respond if you wish to clarify.

I am the only one who sees the irony in criticizing someone for telling people what to do, which I didn't and if I did I apologize, and then criticizing people for being unable to govern themselves....

How am I lending the exploitation of the earth my voice? I really don't understand this. Unless you mean that milder actions of resistance, like letter writing protesting etc, actually support the system....

With the lies comment, to lie you have to intend to lie. If I said anything false it was unintentional and hence would not be a lie. It is constitutive of lying that the person attempt to decieve another with the lie. Why would I attempt to lie in this situation, it wouldn't achieve anything. That is what is so bizarre about your comments, I don't understand what you thought I was trying to do. I apologize on my poor hermeneutic technique, I simply lack the means to make out what you are getting at.

reposting of my first reply 04.Aug.2002 15:40

todd

Sorry one of these didn't get posted. Here it is in schemtaic form

I wasn't trying to
1. lie
2. tell anyone what to do or how to do it
3. assert my own hegemony over the lives of others so as to marvel at my the glory of my own creation [I am trying to match the rhetoric above :)]
4. govern
5. target, scapegoat, or point the finger at any certain group of people
6. crush diversity out of some masochistic love of authoritarian rule
7. morally condemn monkey wrenching, or destruction of corporate property.

I was attempting to
1. express lament for the ever spreading wrath of the federal government against innocent victims, radicals, activists, etc [which is not the fault of anyone but the feds].
2. comment on the volatile situation for forest activist due to the actions of the federales and the Oregon legislature [again guilt lies with the state]
3. comment on behavioral traits, which may be manifested by anyone, that annoy me [i.e. overly aggressive behavior]. I don't see anything wrong with being annoyed with someone's behavior, but perhaps I am corrupt beyond all help on this point.

Just for clarity, I do actually sympathize with some of the things self-proclaimed ELF people do. I don't think there is anything wrong with breaking equipment of a company that breaks the law, robs the community of its forests, pollutes, etc. I personally don't choose that avenue, but I have no problem with it. It may or may not be effective, I truly don't know.

Let us leave it at that. I admit my post was misleading, overstated, and not clear. I apologize for that. I am not sure how it generated such responce but I will attempt in the future to clarify better.