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imperialism & war

WAR IS PROFITABLE! Rally

rally in eugene

I was too happy to break out of study mode and march in a "demanding truth" rally regarding the whole 9.11 thing. Being sufficiently roused after writing my final paper for my World Religion class (an article on Islam with the required theme of educating the public about Islam) and with a newly acquired piece of information that I read this morning about the Carlyle Group funding the Pakistan - India Conflict, I was ready to blow off some steam. My theme for this weeks rally: "WAR IS PROFITABLE". It is completely beyond comprehension to me that there are corporations and individuals who get rich at the expense of human life!

As we marched from the university to the federal building in the strong wind (that at times seemed to carry us along), and the bright blue sky with cottony clouds, onlookers and passersby watched and wondered what we were all about. Lots of support which I am happy to report is steadily growing each time that I am out there in the street. My favorite response this week probably was the one from an elderly man on a bike. He looked at our signs as we stood at the federal building and said: "I think it was about the oil", and then pedaled away.

The backside of this sign, originally a box for a DVD player, had a picture of a television on it. On the screen was an airplane. with a little help from photoshop i juxtaposed the two together to show what I think is interesting symbology...

It's really pretty inspiring to be out there, especially with others who are also demanding truth. Some of the group was passing out informational fliers to anyone who would take one, a way to educate and wake america up form its slumber! Sometimes I feel so enraged at the political circus that is running the show from behind the curtain, so taking that energy to the streets helps shake off some of the buildup.

Today, as I was standing out there with the nourishment of the sun on my face, I thought about what Che Guevara said regarding the true revolutionary acting from a place of Love. The universe gave me a clear sign of that truth after I left the rally and started heading for home, spotting this etching in the sidewalk.

nice article 08.Jun.2002 09:24

momo

hey, peacerebel girl, this was a nice article.

but do you mind me asking out of curiosity, I had just got done looking at eugene imc's news and didn't see this posted on there. Is there any particular reason why that was? After all, this did happen in eugene. I was pretty surprised to come across this when I didn't see it on the eugene imc site!

in response 08.Jun.2002 10:57

peace rebel girl

Hey Momo -- thanks for asking. Actually, there are a couple of reasons why I posted my article on PDX versus Eugene Indy.

One, I am most familiar with PDX, and started posting stuff here shortly after learning about it post 9.11. At the time there was no Eugene Indy. So, it feels like home to me.

I know some of the PDX editorial people so they can hide my photos so that I can then arrange them in the layout that I do. Everyone, in my opinion, needs to be able to use a more creative layout if they so desire.

Original stuff on PDX generally gets center column attention, as per a new thing that they are trying out to get more people to post their own thoughts, stories, photos, etc.,so for me, more people get to see what I see that is going on out there. It's an incentive, let's say.

thanks for sharing! 08.Jun.2002 11:50

momo

that's very telling of the support that you are getting from portland imc...that is definitely hard to get that kind of support for open publishing, how great that is!

I know that I've wondered in the past if I could get help with html for my articles (but they are just as well received in text, but if one has photos that makes it particularly nice to have that support) - it would be great if portland imc could offer that kind of assistance to the public on a regular basis...

and I am still looking through your other linked article, or "your homework" (lol!) and it is very informative. I'm also struck with the historical accounts you give that kind of shed light on similarities between christianity and islam (I'm still too ignorant of jewish history to speculate on how similar it might be): like the Angel Gabriel, and I have read before that there was an Abraham (Abrahim?) and I'm sure there are many other similarities that I am missing here.

how would the world perceive it, I wonder, if someone could demonstrate how these two religions could be more similar than different? wouldn't that just blow some minds, seriously!!

reasons 4 and 5 08.Jun.2002 12:20

peace rebel girl

news is pretty much news where ever it happens, especially when people are rising up and taking to the streets. So a rally that happens in Eugene is newsworthy at any of the indy sites - a sort of inspiration for others to do the same where they live.

PDX indy is a pretty widely read newswire. In line with inspiring people, I want to reach as wide an audience as possible. BUT - I went and published this article to Eugene Indy, a bit of an edited version with a link back here if someone wants to read the full story and see all of the photos. Thanks for the push Momo.

 link to eugene.indymedia.org

One just has to be ultra patient when posting to Eugene Indy since the upload time is pretty slow and then it takes forever to show on the wire. snore...

portland imc ... come back to us 08.Jun.2002 18:09

indymedia anarchist

What is happening to the Portland IMC? Why are you doing the Democrats work for them? What is the strategic goal of of clinging to this idea that the CIA did 9-11? I can't believe I see a Portland Indymedia person holding a sign which says "complicit in attacks." You are letting James Bond movies frame your analysis of what is going on.

You are right to say that the White House version of what happened is false. You are wrong to take the most reactionary position possible and try to show that they are the ones who did the attack.

The truth is that neither you nor Mike Ruppert have proof of anything. What you have are facts which seem out of line with the official story, and you are using them to construct scenarios which require several logical leaps.

As a class war anarchist, I expect a more sophisticated analysis of what the ruling class is up to. The feigned shock and outrage is the most annoying part of the conspiracy bullshit. Also, the added bonus of paranoia and accusations whenever someone tries to dissect your simplified version of "the CIA did it."

The facts are that the ruling class is historically engaged in violence within itself and against the working class. It always propagandizes these actions to make them acceptable to the people. You can find examples around any major or minor political event, 9-11 included. Their class interests are diametrically opposed to our class interests, and this disparity is resolved through economic and physical force. By placing yourself in the most reactionary position possible to this fact of life under capitalism, you are promoting a naive and superficial analysis of what is going on in the world today.

to indymedia anarchist 08.Jun.2002 22:50

9.11 Truth Seeker

You say: "You are right to say that the White House version of what happened is false." This is a very fundamental place for to agree. In my mind such agreement on that point overshadows any other disagreement.

I do not follow you when you interpret a sign that says, "Complicit In Attacks", as meaning "the CIA did it". For me, "Complicit In Attacks" is not the same as "Responsible For Attacks", "Planned The Attacks", or "Did The Attacks". "Complicit" suggests to me the idea that the CIA *knew* something. It could also suggest more than that or less than that, but is not definitively, "Did" the attacks.

I'm also not sure how it is relevant if the person holding the sign is a "Portland Indymedia person" or not, whatever that might be.

You say: "Why are you doing the Democrats work for them?"

<sigh> This isn't about this or that wing or party. This is about finding the Truth and then dismantling the institutions that cover it up. If indeed the Bush Administration had foreknowledge of the 9.11 attacks, and this information somehow gets out into the open, we will have the opportunity to toss out the whole darn system. Because if the government *did* know, that points to a much bigger problem than the current administration or president. How many Americans would approve if they found out the gov't knew and did nothing, or worse yet, helped enable the attacks? 10%? 5%? It would be really darn low. It would present an incredible opportunity for some real change. The kind of change we only dream of right now, but which history *does* hand people every once in a while. Either that, or we would enter a very painful period of chaos. I'm hoping for (and working toward) the first, however. I have a feeling you probably are, too, as a "class war anarchist".

As for the rest of your comments, I'm not really sure who the "you" is that you're addressing. Sometimes it seems to be the author of the post, but at other times you are making references to things that aren't in the article at all. For example, you mention Mike Ruppert, who is not in this article. If you are referring to previous articles or posts, it would be helpful for you to provide links to those other stories. Because right now you're just confusing me and I read and post here a lot.

Finally, you say, "I expect a more sophisticated analysis of what the ruling class is up to". Well, Indymedia is a forum for you yourself to provide that analysis. Please share it here, in depth, so that we can see what you're talking about. Thanks !!

copvscia 09.Jun.2002 14:46

lotus

www.copvscia.com is on one of the protest signs;

It is Mike Ruppert's website.

a nice rally tho. I want to see more.

islam.chritianity.judaism 09.Jun.2002 17:23

peace rebel girl

Hey Momo --

I was completely religiously illiterate before I embarked upon this "World Religion" class, having no personal religious experience to speak of.

The likenesses of Islam, Christianity and Judaism are much greater than their differences. Jesus and Muhammad were both prophets that espoused social justice and taught the importance of social action if there were injustices going on. Judiasm strongly stresses the need for individuals to stand up and speak out.

These religions share a lot of the same characters such as the angel Gabriel and Abraham (who was also a prophet that preceeded Muhammad)and was one of the most important to the Muslims.

I think that there is some religious jealousy in the Christians who do not like the idea of The Prophet Muhammad arriving on the scene after Jesus, and being referred to as the final prophet. But Muslims do believe that it is Jesus who is returning on Judgement Day.

Some people think that Islam boasts that there God (Allah) is the only God, yet Muslims recognize that this God is the same as the Christian "God". It's all One God.

The fundamental issues that are present in todays religion go so against the wisdom of the prophets, a real disrespect to their message.

I too think that mending the splits that fundamentalism has sown into religions would have a tremendous and far reaching impact, and that it is without a doubt necessary before we will witness any real change.

I am still a novice at this but it does not take a theologian to understand the importance of healing the wounds that have been inflicted within the worlds major religions in order to move towards world peace.

Open Letter to C-Span 10.Jun.2002 09:48

Carol Brouillet

Urgent!!! Big DC Press Conference on 9-11 today!And C-Span won't cover it! Below is some info- and a sample letter to C-Span.

A international press conference and formal web site launch for UnansweredQuestions.org will be
held on Monday,
June 10th from
2-5 PM at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C.


The goal of this unprecedented press event and public inquiry is to pose
pointed, as yet unanswered, questions regarding the failure of our national
security infrastructure, and the response that has sacrificed civil liberties
and rewarded failure as opposed to ensuring performance and guaranteeing freedoms, now and in
the future.


UnansweredQuestions.org is being launched by an independent,
non-partisan network of citizensconcerned about the growing number of
issues surrounding September 11th that have yet to be addressed or
resolved; and their related public safety and Constitutional implications.
Invited panelists will offer statements, present well-documented research,
and ask incisive questions relative to these issues while addressing how
citizens can act now to ensure accountability from those in government
directly responsible for public safety and upholding the Constitution.


The conference will be moderated by Catherine Austin Fitts, President
of Solari and former Assistant Secretary of Housing during the 1st
Bush administration.


Confirmed participants include:


1st Panel-- (approx. 45 min including Q&A)


Julie Sweeney, wife of Brian Sweeney, killed on United Airlines flight 175
into South WTC tower Julie will present her case for a full and open
investigation.


Ryan Amundson, brother of Craig Amundson, killed at the Pentagon;
co-founder of Peaceful Tomorrows.org. (issue focus TBA)


Derrill Bodley, also of Peaceful Tomorrows, lost his daughter Deora
on Flight 93 (issue focus TBA)


Lorna Brett, Director of Media Relations, Nolan Law Group,
representing 9/11 families on United Airlines hijacked planes.
(issue focus TBA)


Mary Schiavo, Esq., lawyer for 32 passengers' families from all 9/11
hijacked planes, former Inspector General of the U.S. Department of
Transportation ('90-'96) and author of Flying Safe, Flying Blind. Ms.
Schiavo will speak to FAA accountability and Airline safety.



2nd Panel-- (Approx. 1 hr.)


Michael Ruppert, Editor of From the Wilderness Publications,
investigative journalist; former Narcotics Officer, LAPD, will provide
historical and geo-strategic context to the War on Terror. He is currently
on a lecture tour in Canada, speaking to sold-out audiences, and getting
extensive press coverage.


John Judge Author, Judge for Yourself and Co-founder, Coalition on
Political Assassinations (COPA), will speak about the failure of US Air
Defenses on September 11th.


Tom Flocco, investigative journalist, will discuss highly unusual insider
trading in the trading days immediately preceding September 11th.


J. Michael Springmann, veteran of 20 years of foreign service, posted at
the Saudi Embassy for a two years. Based on his experience there he
will speak to "the CIA and terrorism."


Dr. Steve Camarota, Director of Research; Center for Immigration
Studies; will address "Immigration and Terrorism."


Peter Erlinder, Professor of Constitutional Law, William Mitchell College
of Law will discuss Constitutional issues relative to the Patriot Act.


Richard Ochs, freelance writer and researcher, will present his research
into the anthrax attacks.



--Members of Congress have been invited to participate in the third
hour of the conference.


Organizers maintain that it is the role of informed active citizens to
insist upon standards of performance from our public officials in regard
to the events surrounding 9-11 and ongoing threats. Organizers are
calling for a complete and public investigation of the failures of
government agencies (FBI, CIA, INS, FAA) uncovered recently. This,
they insist, requires a fuller disclosure of the circumstances surrounding
each case in order to effectively address documented misappropriation
(or lack of appropriation), incompetence, negligence and possible
corruption. Doing so will ultimately foster an intelligence and national security apparatus
that is effectively
committed to the public safety and a government
worthy of trust, operating within the bounds of the US Constitution, and fully accountable to
the American people.


Members of radio, television and print press are invited to attend. There
will be ample opportunity for questions and follow-up, and one-on-one
interviews with the panelists directly following the event.


Press kits available beginning at 1:30PM outside Holeman Lounge,
National Press Club



**Registration required for admittance**


Please contact Kyle F. Hence to register: 401-847-1963;
 kylehence@earthlink.net

Since mid-May, organizers of the 9-11 and the Public Safety press event,
June 10th, at the National Press Club (NPC) in Washington, D.C, have
been campaigning for media coverage. This past week, co-chair, Tom
Flocco has solicited C-SPAN for coverage hoping for a live TV broadcast,
or at minimum a taped and delayed broadcast.


C-SPANs web site says: "Certain events, like speeches at the NPC and
news conferences by Congressional leaders, automatically receive
coverage." The site also details pre-conditions that an event must meet
to be selected for coverage:


1) The event should be of a public affairs nature.
2) The subject should be an issue of national importance.
3) Event should be selected to show balance between different sides of a
particular issue.
4) Speakers participating should be closely related to the topic under
discussion.


Initial reaction was positive; "this is very interesting, something we
want to consider" said Rob Harleston, Assignment Editor, a sentiment
echoed by Karen Gaither, another assignment editor. They requested that
we keep them updated on any new developments and confirmations.


Friday was D-Day. The editorial/camera shoot committee met Friday
afternoon after a few last minute calls to Tom requesting updates as to
panelists and other media coverage, still expressing enthusiasm. Tom and
co-chair Kyle F. Hence expeditiously dispatched confirmation updates and
a detailed minute by minute agenda and timeline of presentation --
clearly indicating that positive momentum and significant interest was
building for the event.


We were particularly pleased that representatives from the group
organizing the June 11th Rally on Capital Hill (Families of September
11th) were planning on attending our conference and offering their own
questions to our 9/11 investigative panel.


We now felt the people and the press were eager to hear the unaddressed
issues and unanswered questions to be raised at our Monday event. And
we felt somewhat confident based on their expressed interest that they
would at the very least tape the show for a later broadcast given our
focus on key issues with regard to the pubic safety.


But we were wrong!


Tom called C-SPAN at 5:30 pm to inquire about their TV coverage
decision. He learned they had decided NOT to cover Monday's Unanswered
Questions press event. They have instead scheduled detailed coverage of
Bush Administration officials (VP Cheney, Homeland Security Director Tom
Ridge) and others promoting President Bush's new plan to centralize
major national and domestic security and border agencies under the
auspices of one government official -- administration events all
afternoon.


Tom offered this response to his contact Ms. Gaither. He said, "C-SPAN
has fallen for the Administration's 'damage control' and their effort to
keep the FBI whistleblowers and the real, unanswered questions totally
off the radar screen." "We are standing by our decision to cover Bush
Administration events," Ms. Gaithor said, adding "I could not persuade
the other editors to cover your program."


C-SPAN's bias toward airing the Homeland Defense restructuring issue is
part of an ongoing diversion and reticence to address gross government
failures and negligence surrounding 9-11, without responding to the
general public call for full accountability.


WHAT YOU CAN DO:


If you feel that the American people, and especially the family members
who lost loved ones, deserve real answers, open investigations, and
access to secret government documents; we are urging you to do the
following:


1) Between 8AM and 2PM on Monday take a half hour to an hour to phone
(most important), fax and email C-SPAN asking them why they are refusing
any coverage or taping of such critically important subject matter. (If
the phone is continually busy, that means others share your outrage and
concern.)


2) Send an email and a fax if you have access to a fax machine. Please
be courteous and concise in expressing your views.


KEY POINTS TO CONSIDER IN EXPRESSING YOUR VIEWS:


C-SPAN's website says that their editorial staff strives for balance.
Why are they ignoring a press event at the easily accessible and
prestigious National Press Club -- one that will cover key questions and
critical information thus far not addressed by our national leaders?
These issues include air defense and airport security failures, profits
from pre-attack insider trading, anthrax attacks, encroachment on
guaranteed constitutional rights, and the withholding of secret
document, etc.


C-SPAN is refusing any coverage or taping of the press event on these
9-11 issues even though two of the three C-SPAN channels became open
with no required congressional programming since the House of
Representatives is not even in session on Monday afternoon.


Please urge C-SPAN to reconsider their decision and send a team to
videotape the conference to be sure that substantive 9/11 issues, new
information important questions are fully addressed that help build a
case for a full and independent investigation.



KEY CONTACTS AND EDITORIAL STAFF MEMBERS:


Main number: 202-737-3220
Assignment editor: 202-626-7965 (Rob Harleston)
Assignment editor: 202-626-7965 (Ellen Schweiger)
Fax number: 202-737-6226
Viewer services: 765-464-3080
 dceditor@c-span.org (Rob Harleston, Assignment Editor)
 congress@c-span.org (Karen Gaither, Assignment Editor)
 journal@c-span.org (producers of Washington Journal, shown daily)
 viewer@c-span.org
 events@c-span.org (C-SPAN established venue to suggest a public event -
polling email address)
 radio@c-span.org (C-SPAN radio)


We are disappointed that C-SPAN has chosen not to cover unanswered
questions, un-addressed issues, and hidden information pertinent to
public safety and national security. However, we are hoping that the
response of many Americans willing to phone, fax and email C-SPAN will
convince them to reconsider their position and cover our event so many
others will have the benefit of evaluating previously un-addressed
issues.


The goal of our event is to raise glaringly obvious and disturbing
questions that remain unanswered in the wake of 9/11. In its prejudiced
decision not to cover this important event, C-SPAN is in effect taking
our money (taxpayer cable-funded fees) and using it against us to deny
public access to legitimate and credible inquiry regarding issues of
paramount importance to the public safety and national security.


If we should fail in our attempt to have C-SPAN reconsider, we will call
on concerned citizens and victim families to take the initiative to
research civil procedure regarding
C-SPAN's actions. While UnansweredQuestions can play a minor role in
this effort, it will remain true to its primary goal of galvanizing the
public's call for answers and full accountability with regard to the
events and issues surrounding September 11th.


C-SPAN IS TOO IMPORTANT A NATIONAL TREASURE AND MEDIA ASSET FOR US TO
IGNORE THIS UNFAIRLY BIASED EDITORIAL DECISION.

Atttention C-Span-

Of vital importance to the country, the world, is exposing the truth of the September 11, 2002 attacks upon the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Citizen's have marched and demanded a Congressional Inquiry of 9-11 (see  http://www.communitycurrency.org/9-11.html for details). In response Bush and Cheney have tried to limit the inquiry to the joint House/Senate Intelligence Oversight Committees, headed by outside staff- notable Britt Snider, Ex-CIA Inspecter General (sort of like asking Ken Lay, Ex-CEO to investigate Enron). Despite efforts to whitewash the involvement of the Administration, and their foreknowledge of the attacks, more and more people are beginning to realize and question the Administration's role in the "defining crime" of our time. To draw attention away from the "slight revelations" that are coming out of the current, limited, "inquiry" which are supposed to give the Intelligence services alibis for their "failure" and justify expanding their budget, the Bush Administration is demanding even more power to intrude upon and control people living in North America with his new "reorganization" and expansion of Homeland Security. The shrill clamor of "the Big Lies" and scare tactics of the Administration are calculated to draw attention away from the cries for truth, transparency, accountability from the citizens of the United States. Do not give in to the demands of an aspiring "dictator." Listen to the "questions" raised by an informed citizenry, who have lost family members, civil rights and are being threatened by their government. They represent, not only themselves, but people like me, mothers, children, people from all over the world who see the "War on Terrorism" as a "War on Truth," a war on democracy and dissent, to serve the elite interests of the wealthy, the powerful, transnational corporations, the military-industrial complex, at the expense of liberty, justice, the pursuit of happiness, and life, itself.

This is a critical moment in history, please allow people to raise their voices, raise the vital questions and be heard. "Evil triumphs- when Good People remain silent, or are Silenced by Powerful forces."

This is no time to accede to the White House, it is time to raise the hard questions, expose the truth, hold them accountable for their crimes against this country and the world.

Please choose the right path, lend your help to the most important task of this time.

Sincerely,

Carol Brouillet


complicity duplicity 10.Jun.2002 15:15

indymedia anarchist

"I do not follow you when you interpret a sign that says, 'Complicit In Attacks', as meaning 'the CIA did it'... It could also suggest more than that or less than that, but is not definitively, 'Did' the attacks."

The problem seems to be that you don't know what "complicit" means. Maybe the CIA knew something or other, that doesn't make them complicit. Perhaps they thought they knew something and failed to stop it (incompetence is equally compelling as complicity given the "facts"). Maybe they knew something but didn't prioritize it. You are taking facts and constructing a motivation.

"<sigh> This isn't about this or that wing or party. This is about finding the Truth and then dismantling the institutions that cover it up."

Oh, I see. The Truth with a capital T. And you wonder why people try to dis-associate themselves from this conspiracy bullshit? Let me fill you in on a frustrating fact of life: you will never know The Truth. Just like no one will ever know for sure who killed JFK, etc etc. Pretending that you have The Truth or that your line of reasoning is closer to The Truth than others is ridiculous.

"If indeed the Bush Administration had foreknowledge of the 9.11 attacks, and this information somehow gets out into the open, we will have the opportunity to toss out the whole darn system."

No, you won't. At the very best, in your wildest fantasies, you might be able to discredit the Bush Administration and prevent re-election. Government corruption scandals only marginally help. Witness Watergate, which pretty much signaled the end of more than a decade's worth of impressive social struggle. Witness Iran-contra, which exposed massive corruption with little to no effect. Witness the spin-job performed by the FBI when criticized from within ... it is being used as the reason for a stronger, more centralized FBI. Your fantasy of everyone seeing The Truth ignores the real problem of "them" being in power.

"How many Americans would approve if they found out the gov't knew and did nothing, or worse yet, helped enable the attacks? 10%? 5%? It would be really darn low."

So what? After spending years convincing people of some unprovable conspiracy theory, what's your plan after that? Help usher in a new Democrat figurehead? It goes nowhere. People already know that the government is fucked. What are we going to do about it?

"Well, Indymedia is a forum for you yourself to provide that analysis. Please share it here, in depth, so that we can see what you're talking about."

The analysis is just what I said -- the ruling class always lies in order to create states of warfare. It is a historical fact, and the specifics of those lies are meaningless. We might as well be arguing whether or not the Gulf of Tonkin incident actually happened.

In the end, I think that exposing connections between the Saudis, Osama bin Laden, Cheney, Carlyle, Bush etc is worthwhile. What I do not think is worthwhile is harping on some unprovable theory, defending it with paranoid accusations, and shifting the focus away from what we can do right now to strategically bring an end to this disgusting empire and system of capitalism. Common sense tells you that the system is fucked -- you don't need to bank it all on some wingnut theory which you can't prove anyways.

definition of 'complicit' 11.Jun.2002 01:43

one of those 'look it up' dictionary people

Merriam Websters defines "complicit" as "having complicity". (oh boy, thanks.) They define "complicity" as an "association or participation in or as if in a wrongful act".

Seems to me that leaves it pretty open for any of the interpretations of "complicit" that have appeared in these comments.

re: indymedia anarchist 11.Jun.2002 01:58

harper

You say: "What I do not think is worthwhile is harping on some unprovable theory, defending it with paranoid accusations, and shifting the focus away from what we can do right now to strategically bring an end to this disgusting empire and system of capitalism."

Interestingly, you also say: "You are taking facts and constructing a motivation" because that is what you are doing in making the above statement, in reference to the people you are attacking. I myself (as one of the people I *think* you're attacking, but I'm not sure) do *not* subscribe to any particular theory or alternate story about 9.11. I do not have a story to defend. I think the official story is bullshit, and I think that a lot of great facts and ideas are being brought up by a lot of different people right now that point to other possibilities. Within that spectrum of questions I think it is perfectly reasonable to say something about the CIA being "complicit in attacks". I think that the word "complicit" covers a lot of ground; is, indeed, almost vague.

Where we differ (perhaps) is on whatever might be the best way to "strategically bring an end to this disgusting empire and system of capitalism", which is our common goal. I think that turning the American people against the system is a good start in that direction. I think that exposure of the real story behind 9.11 (whatever that is) has the possibility of doing that. Right now, most people are not against the system, or only are subconsciously, which is not good enough.

And I think this could be much bigger and more significant than Watergate if it all came out into the open. We are living in different times, and U.S. history might not be the best indicator of what will happen next. Looking at the falls of other empires might be more helpful. The way the government is moving now (a North American military command and a Homeland Defense department, which will add vicious teeth to the USA PATRIOT Act) is without precedent, at least as far back as the Civil War. The fascism has not actually been this sweeping, powerful, and in the open before. This is a different game, and the stakes are higher for *everybody*, opppressors included.

I wouldn't give up hope yet, in other words.

this is the crux of the issue 12.Jun.2002 19:30

indymedia anarchist

"I think that turning the American people against the system is a good start in that direction."

Yep -- this is where the difference comes. I am not interested in the "American people" ... I am interested in my class and overthrowing the system with and for the benefit of my class (working class), who really have no illusions about how fucked up the system is. Trying to disillusion the middle or upper class is ultimately a waste of time, because it is in their class interests to forget or go in denial. Even if you can convince them with the facts, their actions will be no different besides doing everything they can to save their capitalist lifestyle.

Let's move away from preaching about how right we are, and move into showing people alternatives that can build momentum to permanently do away with the system.

re: indymedia anarchist 13.Jun.2002 20:16

deva

regarding the talk of proof about 911 and so on. . .i agree that there is no 'proof' as such

there is no proof of alot of things you or others might take for granted

there is no proof that the US was involved in the attempted coup in Venezuela. . .but of course they were

there is no proof that George Bush was involved in a conspiracy to defraud black florida voters. . .his brother and florida campaign manager conspired to do so, but there is no proof Dubya knew. . .of course he knew. . .its his brother doing it on his behalf

the Anthrax came from secret US research, it was sent to top democrats who were voicing concern with the Patriot Act. . .the first letters were postmarked two days after the Patriot Act was proposed. . .after the Patriot Act passed and was signed by Bush, the Anthrax attacks ceased. . .the Congress building was shut down exactly when the bill was before Congress. . .the day after Bush signed it, when the Supreme Court could challenge its constitutionality, the Supreme Court was shut down with an Anthrax scare. . .the FBI has arrested nobody, because the trail leads to the CIA and Department of Defense secret weapons development (illegal by the way). . .the anthrax attacks are a clear and undeniable conspiracy. . .

who else but high level intelligence (CIA) could 'liberate' the anthrax from high security facilities, get the Congress, and then the Supreme Court closed exactly on time, to pass legislation pushed by Bush/Ashcroft/Cheney, intimidate Congress and then get away without getting caught. . .is there proof? no. . .is it a CIA operation? yup

in Venezuela, the people rose up because they knew something needed doing, and that Chavez did not resign as the papers said. . .every paper and TV in the country was trying to validate the coup. . .

in the US, Bush and the powers that support him pulled a coup to occupy the White House, have launched a secret shadow government, cowed Congress and the media by sending them Anthrax letters, and are in the process of creating a fascist state structure. . .the 911 attacks fit right into the plan. . .

is there proof of 911 complicity? no. . .however i trust my gut and the preponderance of circumstantial evidence and will stand on it. . .if you prefer to think otherwise, thats up to you. . .if you start arguing, like this idiot Corn, that the CIA and Bush etc would not do such a thing, then i'll take strong exception to it

corporate globalization, and the rise of state fascism go hand in hand. . .two sides of the same coin. . .both have lost all sense of humanity and balance in the name of power and profit.

Thanks for the Education 01.Sep.2006 20:51

Stevo photostevo@msn.com

Your film featuring Mike Ruppert has put the whole 911 thing in context for me. I had been confused as to the exact "big picture", but work on the principle that whoever profits is usually behind any actions. Your film has been an Education, as Ruppert laid bare the whole dirty crew. My thanks. Stevo. West Sussex, England, U.K.