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"Green Anarchists" sabotage IMC

Primitivist chaoticist tendency sabotages consensus process, engages in anti-democratic, anti-communist polemics slagging everyone on the Left, seeks solidarity with Fascists, "against the government and the Left", viciously attacks anyone who criticizes, calls for destruction of all civilization and technology, couched in metaphysical rhetoric
(if you send e-mail, please specify "agitprop" in the Subject line, or it will get trashed with the spam)

This article has also been posted to UK imc, and to the global wire.


"Green Anarchist" primitivist chaoticists seem to have been run out of the UK, and relocated to the US.

Does the description above sound familiar?

Now they are trying to Bogart the scene in Eugene Oregon, with their all too prolific propaganda machine, which includes an illegitimate IMC site dominated by their whack, cultish sect.

Some are challenging their right to call it IMC, since they lied about being a diverse and representative collective, and generally refuse mutual aid and cooperation with anyone but their own clique, by refusing to engage in democratic process, including consensus (since so few people agree with their analysis and tactics).

If anyone criticizes them, they "call out the dogs", to spam the critic with vicious adhominem attacks unrelated to the actual complaints. They tend to accuse anyone who dares to challenge them of being divisive, cops, "fascist stalinists", etc.,etc, which actually is exactly what the "GA"/pc crew seem to be.

Their messianic claim to be the only "True Revolutionaries", with a rhetoric steeped in mystical apocalyptic references, is particularly offensive and reminiscent of Nazi reactionary conservative calls for a return to pagan roots.

A couple of the people now organizing under this "Green Anarchist" rubric and editing their newspaper are Brits, as evidenced by their use of such terms as "whilst", etc.

Any comments, reports on your personal and organizational experience with these insidious fools, and tips for dealing with them, would be welcome. Reference to any websites, discussion lists, or other sources documenting the history of the GA crew in the UK would also be greatly appreciated.

 android9@hotmail.com

(PLEASE specify agitprop in the subject line, or your message will get trashed with the spam)

There may also be some discussion of this topic on the new IMC discussion list-serve, imc-resolve, initiated for issues requiring conflict resolution.

Some previous discussion of the topic can also be found by searching the archives of imc-process, and new-imc.
I do know one thing 31.May.2002 13:24

Patrick Ångstrom Poore babelin2@hotmail.com

Axiom 1 of organizational structure:

If a group wishes to do something together, the group must agree together to do something.

Progressive organizations, such as Portland IMC, have learned that open organizations are vulnerable to Perpetual Revolution. Every time a new faction comes around, it's likely that a shift in politics, organizational structure, and tactics will ensue.

What the author is concerned about is a real problem... it's THE problem to address.

I encourage the author, and others who experience this problem, to address it directly as an organizational obstacle to progressive collective action, and not to worry as much about particular groups and factions & individuals. That's only going to perpetuate the spy culture, namecalling, etc. and facilitate cointelpro-type tactics

Reframe the situation: Progressive organizations should adopt or combine some of the following methods:

a) (closed shop) start groups small/stable and don't let anyone in until the group's purpose and structure are clearly defined.

b) (board of directors) the primary decisions are handled by a small coterie of members somehow chosen (randomly? volunteer?) for the job, and in some sense accountable

c) (kill em all & let goddess sort em out) Recognize that completely open organizations are vulnerable to perpetual revolution, and view this as a strength. One day you may all be climbing Mt Everest, and the next day rolling joints for the revolution. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. Acknowledge you may 'achieve' nothing. However who's to say what constitutes achievement, anyways? Whether it's through attrition, the constant influx of new blood, or sheer entropy... this group style may actually, like some hearty genetic mutation, manifest a strong personality that works, somehow, and is resistant to attack because there's nothing to attack. A good example of this would be some kind of ongoing demonstration - people come to walk in the street, there are different people every time, and if the cops get violent, a riot starts. It's very situational, but not focused at all. This is the outcome of any open group without a clear organizational mission, anyway, so we might as well get used to it.

d) (TAZ) groups are convened for a limited amount of time, a limited purpose, or a limited locale. The group fanatically to reach that goal, and dissolves once it's purpose is realized.

e) (benevolent dictator) One person has an idea, and they recruit people to work on it with them.

f) (freemason) a more intense closed shop that never really opens - and may even indulge in various methods of secrecy. obviously, it's not open, but there are advantages. After all, it's worked for centuries, hm?

please comment, folks! I believe this is extremely important at this stage of remaking society.

Angstrom Light Years Off 31.May.2002 16:24

android9 android9@hotmail.com

Angstrom's response ignores, or evades, the real issue, namely democracy, as opposed to all the other methods he so revealingly cites as our "only" options.

The democratic consensus of imc is that no local imc shall be dominated by one sectarian clique, but must be a genuinely representative collective of a truly diverse community nature.

And how is a progressive organization supposed to address anti-democratic tendencies, except by refusing to tolerate any such practice by particular groups, factions and individuals?

Calling attention to deliberate sabotage of democratic process does not perpetuate spy culture, it stops it in it's tracks. Indeed, the insinuation that raising this issue facilitates cointelpro is exactly the argument raised by the "GA" crew, trying to demonize anyone who criticizes them, as "divisive cops".

This response seems to be typical of "GA" passive- aggressive methods...first they slag you with provocative adhominem attack, and then, if you persist in criticizing them, they come back acting oh-so-nice and reasonable, as if this will prove that their critic is unreasonably harsh, and should be dismissed for making a big fuss over "nothing".

Writing off "GA" practice as some kind of natural evolutionary "hearty genetic mutation" phenomenon of "Perpetual Revolution" is alot of horseshit.

" Shifts" in politics, structure and tactics can, and do, develop democratically, within organizations, believe it or not.

People who are not satisfied with a particular organization's development or response to their proposals for change can always go start their own goddamn organization.

But they have no "right" to deliberately infiltrate, undermine and sabotage an organization by stealth, pretending to agree with it's methods and purpose, when in fact, they do not.

That's what the "GA" crew has done. They lied to get recognized as an imc, with no intention or desire to submit to consensus or to work democratically. They are parasites, trying to feed off the success of imc, yet refusing to subscribe to the fundamental prinicples of it's success.

Angstrom's item c) particularly reveals the true nature of his analysis: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted". These words, the "goddess" reference, and the lie that imc is an "open group without a clear organizational mission", so we " might as well get used to it", (namely "GA" insult, attack, sabotage and ripoff) betray a profound confusion, at the very least, and more likely, a very deliberate attempt to justify everything the "GA" crew is about, albeit in a more subtle and civil manner than is usually characteristic of their apologists and defenders.

Some things are true, and certain things are not permitted.
Fascism sucks, and racist, sexist, eco-rape etc. behaviors must be suppressed, by coercion.

Anarchy is not a "fuck all, do what ever you want" kind of philosophy, except for bourgeois ultra-individualists who haven't got a clue about the realities of revolutionary struggle.

I do not want a "goddess" any more than I want a "god", thank you very much, and I, for one, am not going to just accept, tolerate or "get used to" the nonsense of "GA" and their apocalyptic Pagan jihad as some kind of divine inevitability, any more than I am willing to accept or tolerate Fascism, or capitalism.

Ha ha! Apocalyptic, pagan jihad? 31.May.2002 22:13

Josh

Give me a break. I don't know what problems you are having with indiviual members of one IMC, but your rhetoric is absolutely non-sense. You seem to be most concerned about anti-civilization critiques, but to mark them as "apocalyptic," or "fascist," is uninformed at best.

The basis of the criticism of civilization is that the core of civilization always seems to take from the periphery. Because areas dominated by cement, technology, etc, can support so little life, wilderness always falls to feed civilization. Because those within the core are so alienated from wilderness, and from each other due to division of labor and the alienation brought on by other facets of civilization, our lives are mediated, domesticated, and incomplete. Again, I don't know what your personal disagreement with these people is, and maybe it's valid, but their overall philosophy seems much more solid than anything the left has offered up for quite some time. A wild earth and happy, fulfilled human beings doesn't seem like such a bad goal, arguments about pragmatism aside.

I think you can talk about your struggle against a certain collective without lumping every single individual with a similar philosophy together.

Chicken Little Rampant 31.May.2002 23:04

henny penny

you guys need to relax and enjoy the ride to the "final conflict", "doomsday", or whatever. 97% of the population don't seem to have any problem zoning out with sports and porno. Follow their example WHILST you battle the powers

Primitivism - An Illusion with no future 01.Jun.2002 01:38

Steve Booth grandlaf@lineone.net

THE UK GREEN ANARCHIST SPLIT

I am not sure what you are referring to in the USA. 'Green Anarchist' in the UK split in March 2001. Paul Rogers is sticking to the Primitivist dogma this correspondent above rejects, continuing to publish more of the same old alienated stuff, and appears to be backed by the UK 'Earth First Action Update' people.

In America, Saxon Wood started up 'Green Anarchy'newspaper based in Eugene, but was ousted from this early in 2002, and this paper now seems to be pushing a worthless Primitivist / misanthropist population reduction line, which needs to be repudiated.

I myself am publishing 'Green Anarchist' in Britain, and trying to take the magazine in a better, more open and positive politics direction.

Paul Rogers lays claim to the legacy of the 'Gandalf' Trial, claiming that the state tried to shut GA up, but "we're still here", however he has now broken, in acrimonious terms with all three of the former Gandalf prisoners - myself, Noel Molland and Saxon Wood. As such, his claim to this legacy is now empty.

I emphatically reject 'Primitivism' and have published a pamphlet against it. This is available for $3 from:
POB 10384 Eugene, OR 97440, USA.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

Green Anarchist, 9 Ash Avenue, Galgate, Lancaster LA2 0NP, UK

Green Anarchist, 9 Ash Avenue, Galgate, Lancaster LA2 0NP, UK

organize before engaging code & policy 01.Jun.2002 12:35

ndw ndw@gofairtrade.net

>Progressive organizations should adopt or combine some of the >following methods:

>a) (closed shop) start groups small/stable and don't let anyone in
>until the group's purpose and structure are clearly defined.

Instead an ad hoc group with participants (just lurking) and contributors (workin' gangbusters) should get the simple and obvious stuff done first: ask EVERYBODY to write down who they are, why they're there and what they want to do. Record this as meeting minutes and base initial formation of groups and subgroups on the responses received. Anybody who doesn't do this is hiding something and wasting everyone else's time. People with administrative skills should triage or sort people into ad hoc subgroups that can participate or contribute in some way to the growth of the soon-to-be-permanently-formed group.

>b) (board of directors) the primary decisions are handled by a small
>coterie of members somehow chosen (randomly? volunteer?) for the
>job, and in some sense accountable

No, from the very inception of code and policy, EVERYTHING should be accountable and auditable, with privacy and security engaged where mandatory and verifiable by independent auditors who warrant validation. Why do you think IMCs use opensource OSen and code? Audits of meeting minutes, of source code & file binaries, of actions taken by those so entrusted who take responsibility and act on due diligence to do an assigned task ... ALL actions performed are under the accountability umbrella if everyone has equitable stake and stock in the IMC endeavor.

We live in the 21st century. Everybody should have a soapbox or forum to speak out. Nobody is "chosen" anymore. They choose themselves and their contributions determine their participant status in a group. A coterie is by definition exclusive. Anybody who participates should with cooperation of the primary group be able to form a subgroup running off the primary group's domain or hierarchy to establish its presence (NW.portland.indymedia.org or SE.portland.indymedia.org or sub-subgroup for specific community inclusion, like ClintonSt.NW.portland.indymedia.org)

>...this group style may actually, like some hearty genetic mutation,
>manifest a strong personality that works, somehow, and is resistant
>to attack because there's nothing to attack.

This is the core argument for commissioning, designing and implementing decentral ownership and operations of media (web pages) and networks (provider) . Plus if this is done over distributed servers and not just one central location with central admins--which is too easy a target--now you're talkin' ethereal yet SOLID, proactive activist media!!!

>d) (TAZ) groups are convened for a limited amount of time, a limited
>purpose, or a limited locale. The group fanatically to reach that goal,
>and dissolves once it's purpose is realized.

Excellent idea!! the purpose of TAZ is to (temporarily) establish ideas under time constraints with moderation. in some trades it is called an InForum.

>f) (freemason) a more intense closed shop that never really opens -
>and may even indulge in various methods of secrecy. obviously, it's
>not open, but there are advantages. After all, it's worked for
>centuries, hm?

This sounds like what Bu$h, et al. has now and I don't think it will be working much longer. Fiefdoms are becoming passe. Peace, -Nick W.


hmmm 01.Jun.2002 13:35

Leo

Pagan Jihad
I believe thats an oxymoron sort of like android, but I would still like to ask andriod if he can actually define pagan?
Then define pagan jihad, then THINK about the context of which you put it in, and then see if you can figure out why it is you speak before you think.
As far as im concerned your closed mindedness regarding the god/goddess (among other bull you spew) goes to show any other thing that comes out of your mouth is based on poor judgements and reactions. Rather than a sincere EFFORT to educate yourself or become aware.
Does that mean you should be ignored? Nah if you have a valid point anywhere in there of course it should be addressed. "After all we should listen to the dull and ignorant they too have their stories" -(desiderata)-
All I see in your post is discrimination,
But think about it- since when does the GA symbolize all pagans? Are you being the same thing you call others (especially the ga)? Sounds to me your not interested in anyones thoughts about anything (especially if you cant touch or feel it w/o effort like a child w/o higher reasoning powers), so why is it we should think you are a well rounded, sociable, smart, educated person? Maybe you should contact W.A.R.D. -Witches Against Religious Discrimination and see what they think about your pagan tales! Or would that take too much of your time to find out what a pagan really is?

Merely the way you offer your argument makes most of us want to ignore you. You shouldnt post things in such a way to make them entirely not appropriate to be here. Your post isnt "news" its a general bitch session that isnt sorted or told as any type of clear news situation.
You also dispell ideas (without ever thinking about them) at will to be able to tell yourself that you are right to begin with. Not flaunt a bunch of opinions (non opinions, belief in nothing, certainly not news) that come from being too lazy to think, learn, and experience. You completely disregard anyones comments w/o thought to why they were put there in the first place.
In the future posts you should try to write valid news not your own rants or personal conflicts. I think ill go on over to the eugene site now and tell them what a wonderful job they are doing!
Besides imc has a handle on who is imc that is for imc to decide not you alone. If you have issue with it there are more productive (albeit non lazy) ways to contact imc and have your thoughts voiced and dealt with.
My last bit of advice is to learn to see when you are wrong and apologize for your rude and childish behaviors. That is how one begins to grow up. Once you grow up perhaps you will be more welcome in the activist lifestyle.
Many of the things you said make it perfectly clear why any imc would probably not want you working for them. Thats the only clarity I found in this supposed news story, what you didnt bother to say, but can be read easily between the lines.
Anyone who claims pagans are anything negative is a ignorant fool who should not be amongst those struggling for freedom. Perhaps one of your lessons to learn is that all the while you accuse others of not being in the right, you commit the same crime you are accussing others of. Focus on self you'll do a lot more positive good for all.

Josh Needs a Break, but Gets No Slack 01.Jun.2002 13:47

android9

I know, Pagan jihad sounds pretty ridiculous, but it's actually a fairly common perspective, which I find just as repulsive as fundamentalist "Christians" and the Taliban. The whole notion of banking on a catastrophic apocalypse as the ultimate scenario for salvation seems insane, yet is all too prevelant. I don't think it's a bit funny.

The point is that we're not talking about some personal grudge between me and individuals of a particular imc.

We're talking about an identifiable anti-left, reactionary conservative "political" tendency which has tactically started up a false imc, by fraud, pretending to be a diverse collective of revolutionary community activists, when they are really a small clique of anti-democratic, misanthropic elitist wing-nuts, seeking total hegemony over everybody else.

They selectively edit their bogus "imc" site to only represent their own whack perspective, and attack everyone else, which is exactly why they are bogus, since this is prohibited by imc protocol.

I am not uninformed. I have studied this tendency for many years, and am quite familiar with their rhetoric, general line and practice, which is fairly consistent and typical, as are your comments.

Crtique of "civilization", and even of the obvious foibles of the Left, Labor movement, etc are one thing... and I have to admit, I agree with much of the "GA" critique. But I see nothing progressive or revolutionary about advocating a return to the pre-stone age. If you think that's "solid" you have lost your grip on reality, just like them.

"The Left" has screwed up in numerous ways, but has also had significant impact in the evolution of popular opinion. It's no longer "politically correct" to be a racist, sexist, eco-raping pig. The Right hates that so bad that they are now the ones hysterically calling for "revolution" (counter-revolution) and civil war. A new paradigm has emerged despite their best efforts to kill it off and suppress it with all the power they can bring to bear.

Is it utopia yet? Absolutely not. The struggle continues, not so much because of failures of the Left, but as a result of the absolutely anti-democratic intransigence and residual power of the pigs, who refuse to sumit to popular revolutionary consensus. These things go in cycles. I think we'll eventually take it over the top, and actually implement real democracy, once people recognize the need to ruthlessly suppress anti-democratic tendencies.

Romantic idealism over how good things supposedly were in the old days, and calling for a return to Pagan roots, were in fact integral elements of fascist line and popular appeal, during a time of capitalist contrived crisis. The crisis mentality was used to whip up a frenzy of extreme destructive reaction. The crisis we face now was not caused by the Left, but by capitalism, and the obvious solution is the death of capitalism, not the elimination of all technology and social organization.

Think about it. Collapse of all social organization can only lead to an even worse and more chaotic degeneration of the public interest, into feudal throwback forms, which will be even more viciously detrimental to human potential than the present situation. We can't go back, because nuclear waste and other evils would persist and get even worse.
We need social organization to overcome the terrible threats to all life generated by the present chaos of capitalism.

While it may be true that all "new-age" mystics and primitivists are not "the same", I find their various quirky varieties to be more consistent than diverse, and this particular Eugene "Green Anarchist" sect tries very hard, with some success, to present themselves as the epitomy of the genre, and are fairly representative of the il-logical conclusions most primitivist chaoticists ultimately project.

I have no argument against a more rustic, simple and appropriate aesthetic for preserving wilderness and maximizing human fulfillment. But the problem with "civilization" is not the development of technology and social organization, per se, but the unjustly exploitive expropriation of technology, and the rest of the commons, by elites, against the public interest.

That huge human error seems to spring mostly from anti-social, anti-communal sentiments of ultra-individualism, which seek to justify and perpetuate crimes against humanity and the planet with bogus delusions of divine right, usually "rationalized" by obsessive-compulsive ritualistic hocus pocus. Fuck a whole bunch of religious hooey.

The truly healthy primitive impulse is for communal mutual aid and cooperation, which I advocate, against elitist assertions of individualist hegemony over the communal interest.

That's why I'm so offended by the bogus "GA" clique, because they so insidiously twist and co-opt legitmate concepts, like "Green" and "Anarchist" into such a whack perversion of reason and logic.

What..... 01.Jun.2002 15:41

tr16

What is your deal? You seem to have a real stick up your ass about the primitivists and some supposed "hijacking" of the Euegene Indymedia site. You post here and on the Eugene site at least once a week if not more. Calm down. Take a deep breath. Find something better to do with yourself. Because you are really fucking irritating and your posts have reached the level of spam because they are always the same and far too frequent.

Pot Calling Kettle... Come in, Kettle 01.Jun.2002 16:41

Patrick Angstrom Poore

Again, I think android9 has got his finger exactly on the major obstacle of meaningful progressive organization: how to keep people out that you don't like.

And though my response was dismissed, as a list of choices that groups "must" make, all I wanted to say was, if your group is open, in any meaningful sense, you run the risk of chaoticists, evildoers, finger pointers, criminals and miscreants. And all I'm saying is... if you don't want the group to be open, close it! Or start your own. Or infiltrate the infiltrators. Or try to start a war on IMC

It seems that android9 wants us to hate or mistrust someone, based on his words, which are "true". If they are true, give me some proof. If they are opinion, state your case, build your coalition, fight them to the death, do whatever. But nobody needs you to tell us what the truth is. Just tell us how you see it. Or, do whatever the hell you want, but when you say (quote)

"That huge human error seems to spring mostly from anti-social, anti-communal sentiments of ultra-individualism, which seek to justify and perpetuate crimes against humanity and the planet with bogus delusions of divine right, usually "rationalized" by obsessive-compulsive ritualistic hocus pocus. Fuck a whole bunch of religious hooey"

Then, lay off the anti-social, ultra-individualistic rhetoric, and get to work. Tell us what you think we should do. And we'll decide ourselves who's fascist.

Print your name and email address... do something to show you have a "stake" When ya point fingers, four point back. It's kind of a silly thing to say, but it seems all too often true. Why are you any different? If you expect us to buy your invective, give us some info.

Error 01.Jun.2002 16:47

Patrick Angstrom Poore

by the way... I see your email address is posted, android9. My mistake.

Organize Before Engaging... 01.Jun.2002 17:45

android9

Organize Before Engaging...

At last, some coherent, relevant, incisive remarks on this topic...

I generally agree with the analysis of "ndw".

Primitivist chaoticists tend to resist and try to sabotage any such reasonable and obvious necessities of organizational protocol and democratic process.

But this still leaves us with the question of what about the Eugene "imc"?

The vast majority of responses I have gotten to several, but not, I think, excessive, postings have evaded this issue as well as the broader organizational issues "ndw" addresses so well above.

Perhaps I responded a bit precipitously to Angstrom, but some of his remarks set me off...and now his latest post seems to indicate that he hasn't really read my posts, or looked up the previous posts on this topic, or gotten any real clue about what I'm talking about.

Oh well. Maybe you just have to personally experience the frustration of working long and hard to build a project, only to have anti-organizational elements thwart or retard collectivization with their oppositionalist sabotage. Maybe it is hard to believe that such shit happens, because it seems so unreasonable, illogical, irrational. But then, when I complain about it, I have to be some kind of trouble maker? I don't think so.

Of course, the primitivist chaoticists and religious zealots have protested bitterly about how boring, offensive, hateful, inapropriate, etc. etc. they think my posts are.

Hopefully others can see what I'm talking about...? I am annoyed, it's true, but that doesn't mean I'm full of shit.

I only have so much time to deal with this, but it has seemed obligatory to try, considering the priniciples involved.

I have no desire or intention to be some whack spammer. For what it's worth, it did not seem appropriate for me to post any of this to the Feature section, for example, which I am capable of doing, nor have I posted "every week". When I have posted, it usually gets a lot of comments, and that's where a lot of the real spam has come, in the form of totally unrelated adhominem "GA"/pc attacks that say nothing about the actual issues I have tried to raise, but just try to tell me to shut the fuck up. Well, fuck you, too!

Maybe I'm not all that good of a writer, but my posts have not been any more of an imposition than any of the other crap I've seen, and skipped over on the wire, when I wasn't interested in it.

All I can think of to say beyond this is that the "GA" crew may be touring your region soon, and people should make it a point to engage them in public discussion and debate. Some of them are quite articulate, sincere and charismatic, and may be a challenge for you. The more clever ones have adapted a considerably more subtle and sophisticated approach lately, in response to the widespread criticism they have been getting. But be warned, if you are effective in challenging their line they will tend to attack you any way they think they can get away with, including behind your back.

The worst thing you can do is to merely harrass, ridicule, dismiss, or ignore them and hope they will go away. They are trying, with some success, and often in completely innocent ignorance and naivete, and with a considerable degree of dedication and willingness to put their ass on the line in struggle against the pigs, in the forests, on the street, etc, to recruit your children and comrades for a substantially counter-revolutionary program of cointelpro-inspired police provocation and deliberate sabotage of genuine revolutionary work.

You may very well agree with much of their critique and method...I do...but their bottom-line analysis and program must be refuted, publicly. Going around and around with them on a personal level wil probably get you nowhere...it's just like arguing with a Moonie or a John Bircher, a waste of time. They tend to be absolutely intransigent.

But I guess you can hope personal exchanges may also eventually sink in with those amenable to reason.

Their tendency will definitely interfere with whatever organizational work you are trying to do in your area. It probably already has. You should be prepared to confront it directly, rather than be caught off guard and vulnerable to their sabotage.

If you have any doubts as to the veracity of my remarks about where these people are coming from, check it out for yourself. What else can I say?...

SPAM! couldn't agree more. 02.Jun.2002 11:01

!Heckno! mbthink@hotmail.com

I believe that for all that you assert- that others are authoritarian- or not respective of democracy- you yourself act from a position of MORAL AUTHORITY which is in it self ANTI-DEMOCRATIC!
I (by default mostly) consider myself a green anarchist. I do so because more than any other perspective on anarchy so far -(with the exeption of some people in the transgender community's)- green anarchist's language resonates with my personal expierences. When i see indeginious actavist Rod Coranado speak about racial imperialism and our enviroment my heart leaps. When I see the eugine kids doing thier thing I think "Damn! These people are lighting a fire under the ass of the movement!" and I want to be there. They boldly proclaim support for the ELF while many "lefties" or "actavists" quibble in thier boots. This is not to say that I agree with everything the green anarchist crew does or thier unflinching support for people who glorify cavemen-What I'm saying is this- At the end of the day most every other community I've found has been staffed by authoritarians of such a cast that to hear them speak of democracy makes me struggle at holding back vomit! This has everything to do with my personal respect for democracy- and a lot to do with the despairity between the "movements" thoughts and it's individuals actions.
For example- you speak of the ga crews lack of respect for conscensus- In a way your right- but your also wrong- From the outside it looks like we are disdainfull of concensus- If you knew us you'd see that this is mostly because we reject it as a tool to stifle free and open debate.
This may not be the case with some of us- but it is for the majority of green anarchists i meet-
The eugine imc is what it is- and it only gets what respect it deserves- If it creates within itself a kind of beauracracy or moral authority similar to that in many other closed shops (every body knows) it will stangle itself under the weight of it's own lies. The answer to this problem is as Socraties said "more democracy"
I am not sure that just because the anarchists that make up Eugine Imc's collective identify as ga that they are acting as censors. What do you know that I don't?

Recognize that just as you shouldn't hate other minorities for the actions of those who identify with thier group- niether should you say a few people at the eugine imc are reflective of all ga folks- It is to the credit of our ideas that they trancend location.

You think this makes me an apologist?
you say
People who are not satisfied with a particular organization's development or response to their proposals for change can always go start their own goddamn organization.

I think we've had this conversation before.


you go on to say
Some things are true, and certain things are not permitted.
Fascism sucks, and racist, sexist, eco-rape etc. behaviors must be suppressed, by coercion.

What do you call it when someone you think is your friend tells you please don't talk about this (very personal matter) publicly- and latter goes on to do exactly that!

Could it be suppression or perhaps coercion? By coercing me are you not objectifying me- seeing me as nothing more than a means to your ends? Is this really what anarchy is about? Please brother! Question your own authority! If you do not you will find that you have built a house of cards. I've lived through this before. I've seen them topple. I say no more! How can we challenge others authority if we can't even challenge our own? Not doing so rightly casts us as a movement of hipocits. This in essence why we challenge the left. Not because of some fascist sympathies as you imply.
If you take issue with somthing Zerzan or the GA folks say or have done challenge thier thoughts openly and you will find that your not alone. You may not get the kind of "Yer eather with us or against us!" support you desire but democracy doesn't exist in a vacume it's fought for. I don't aggree with concensus as you see it. I believe in empowering dissent. I believe in finding things in common and working together. Diversity IS strength. This aint jingoism- it's truth. If you can't see it then your thoughts are clouded. If you take up democracy, real democracy you will be amazed at the support you recieve from both the ga and other communities. If you don't want others to see you as a cop then put down your weary nightstick
brother and we'll stop trying to break it..


your weary friend,
heck

Don't feed the wingnuts 02.Jun.2002 22:25

Chuck0 chuck@tao.ca

Don't believe everything that you read about IMCs that is posted to open newswires. It's easy for any right-winger or wingnut to make charges about IMC collectives.

Don't feed the trolls!