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Bogus Eugene IMC

"Green Anarchist" poseurs violate IMC priniciples, for mindless pagan jihad
"Eugene IMC" has finally mounted a (mostly non-functional) webpage, and
issued it's first actual communique via listserv...

As I predicted would happen, their webpage is totally dominated by
Zerzan cultist primitivist chaoticist "Green Anarchist" propaganda.
They justify this as follows, in their listserv communique:

"Eugene Indymedia has sidestepped ideological battles between Anarchists
and the Rest of the Left by skipping the usual Indymedia Features
Section (frought with editorial battles)..."

What this means is that they include only their own jive GA content in
the central "Features" column. Any other Feature source or content they
may deign to include is relegated to categorical icons, elsewhere.

These self-declared profundly anti-democratic elitists presume to
usurp the power over what gets featured on "their" IMC page, in order
avoid any genuinely collective democratic editorial process.

They consider any such process to be too messy and ultimately
non-viable, mainly because so few people really agree with their bottom
line theory and practice. Thus, they refuse to submit to a democratic
consensus process.

This seems a blatant violation of IMC principles prohibiting control of
an IMC site by one sectarian clique. The rhetoric of this particular
clique is deliberately contemptuous, insulting, slanderous and totally
hostile to virtually everyone except themselves, as perfectly
exemplified by the quote cited.

Cleverly, substantial portions of "GA" analysis and critique re: the
evils of capitalism, it's applications of technology and bourgeois "democracy",
and even the foibles of traditional liberal, left, trade union, etc
movements, are sometimes very articulate and somewhat accurate, if
fairly stock, readily available and obvious.

But their bottom line conclusion and application in practice is to
viciously attack everyone struggling against capitalism, and to issue
idiotic calls for the complete destruction of all civilization,
technology, social organization or democracy whatsoever, for a return to
some pre-agricultural, pre-language, pre-stone age hunter-gatherer "chaos",
much of which is couched in mystical religious terms.

Their ultra-conservative reactionary fundamentalist pagan jihad for a
return to some falsely romantacized, idealized "good old days" is
inherently counter-revolutionary.

Their "theory" and practice more closely resemble the lies and slander
of police, bourgeois media and reactionary politicians seeking to
discredit all anarchists, communists, and revolutionary struggle.

The "Green Anarchists" fled Britain for the US a few years ago, after
being thoroughly discredited there for secret, and even public
association with Nazi formations "against the government and the Left".
They have a history, and people should take the trouble to research that
history and deal with them accordingly.

Few of their new recruits are aware of that history, or the implications
of their line in general. Many naive, impetuous, cynical, impatient,
righteously indignant potentially revolutionary youth, especially,
looking for a truly militant, revolutionary struggle, have been suckered
into supporting and participating in this all too prolific and increasingly prevelant tendency. The implications are sickening, but must be faced.

It should come as no suprise that "Green" and "Anarchist" monikers would
be so aggressively co-opted, twisted and discredited. These terms
reflect the most compelling popular democratic yearnings of the masses,
to save the planet, and to abandon hierarchical authoritarian power
structures, for justice and peace. It is only to be expected that bogus
manifestations like "GA" would emerge, against these very concepts.

Completely intransigent COINTELPRO-style disupters should not be allowed
to sabotage IMC, or to bog it down with endless rounds of diversionary
GA "discussion". They seek only to discredit and attack the very
concepts of solidarity, cooperation, mutual aid and collective effort,
with their bourgeois ultra-individualist elitist anti-democratic
psuedo-religious perversions of legitimate anarchist theory and
practice.

People who would try to "avoid a conflict" by ignoring the implications
of both overt and surrepticious GA infiltration and sabotage, are making
a foolish mistake. "Avoiding sectarian infighting" does not mean
letting police agents run amok, tearing down everything we struggle to
build. The solution is genuinely open discussion and democratic process.

 android9@hotmail.com (specify subject: agitprop, or be trashed as spam)

even if the cia itself... 20.Apr.2002 19:04

newswire is the only reason

"Even if the cia itself had taken over an IMC the newswire section would still be there..." there is more to this quote.
Are the features sections really the end all to everything? It is the newswire
page that is the most interesting -for my two cents.

right on 20.Apr.2002 22:36

redworker

thank you. thats the most sensible thing i've haerd about green anarchism for some time. the reactionary nature of this perspective is often overlooked by the left, but it must be pointed out as at best a blind ally, at worst a tool of facism.

This is NEWS? 21.Apr.2002 00:24

Heck NO!

Redworker
What the hell are you talking about?
Is there a specific example of censorship you're talking about?
It seems to me that you harbor some resentment twards the Eugine anarchist community. That's your perogative. What I don't get is why?
Honestly I want to know!
My dealings with the people down there have led me to beleave that if anything there's a bunch of really dedicated, organized groups and individuals in that community. Maybee I'm wrong. Maybee you know somthing about Eugine anarchists or the IMC there that I don't. If this is so PLEASE share! Otherwise please take yer energies and put them to positive ends. Like helping someone, anyone, or maybee doing some work, REAL WORK for your ideal community.

another anarchist for self determination,
HECK

Hey ASSHOLE!!! 21.Apr.2002 16:37

Child of Hecate in Eugene

You bigoted son of a bitch, how dare you use the name of a religion as an insult? Paganism is the name of a spiritual path followed by an estimated half-a-million people in America, not a slur.

Reactionary Fundamentalism Sucks 21.Apr.2002 17:48

android9 android9@hotmail.com

Nazi zionists call critics of Israeli policy "anti-semitic".

"Christian" fundamentalists call anyone who disagrees with their extreme predjudices "anti-Christian".

The Taliban, etc., invoke the name of Allah and Islam.

Religious fanatics are whack, no matter what they call themselves. They can be quite vicious, actually.

GA primitivist chaoticists are the same way, claiming to have the only truly anarchist, revolutionary perspective, when in fact they are full of shit, and spend more time attacking the left than they do attacking the right.

The whole basis of Hitler's movement was a mystical Pagan "new-age" crock of reactionary conservative fascist bullshit, and I have seen many vestiges of that reflected in the modern "new-age" movement.

Does any of this mean all Jews, Christians, Moslems, or Pagans are "the same"? Of course not.

But there are certain identifiable aspects of whack psycho irrational obsession. It comes in all stripes, colors, nationalities and religions.

What a brat! Can't have his way! 21.Apr.2002 21:31

Heckno mbthink@hotmail.com

Dominance- it's what you're for
What I'm against
thats how I feel when I see this all yer hate filled crap flying around
really
android
Pagan What's wrong with bieng pagan
Jihad as if a person who's recently had loved ones murdered doesn't have a right to be pissed
Why don't you quit slandering people
and start challenging the basis of thier critique or whatever you want to call it
It's lies and slander that are counter revolutionary not some half done imc site or the dedicated individuals trying to put it up
As for the amount of time anarchists have of late spent challenging the nationalst liberalism and it's (right?) to dominate or control OUR (anarchists/revolutionaries/anybodies) contribution to the movement or the ideas which fuel it
let me just say..
about four days after sept 11
when most liberarals i knew (I know many) were on the bush bandwagon talking shit about how they were for a remedy in the middle east until this happened. Untill those people pushed (US) too far. Now they (the liberals) would have NO CHOICE? but to support him (unfortunatly?)

Well I went to a grocery store to get some food and was eating it outside. I talked with this older woman who was telling me that her cab was late. The subject turned to my vegan inari roll and then she began to tell me how sad she was that she (a hardcore liberal DEMOCRAT?) was gonna have to support bush on his war on terrorism. I told her how I felt about self determination- she told me that- she's been a die hard liberal for years but explained how she felt about terrorism. I told her that I felt that the events of sept11 were a reaction to recent cia/government unical incursons into the region. That the US has bad blood with people in the arab world and that I'm suprised somthing of this nature hadn't happened earlier. That in effect the chickens had come home to roost.
She said: We're gonna have to blow them bastards back to the stone age!
I said: How can you see another bieng as bieng less than you?
She said: They are less than us! And the're gonna get what they deserve!
Her cab pulled up and she sped away.

That conversation and other similar ones empowered myself and a small collective of radical thinkers in this town to do some REAL guerilla work to change the direction of this debate. I can't speak as to actions taken- it's unsafe, as my previos conversations whth you- android 9 were monitered. You think I'm bull shiting you? Well try going to jail- having a guard drill you about yer knowledge of ELF and mockingly repeat a specific line from our email corrispondance. Gave me the willies for sure!
We can think for ourselves! Why don't you?

"HeckNo" A Typical Example 22.Apr.2002 00:36

android9 android9@hotmail.com

I have polemicized at some length about the exact problems I have with the GA/PC clique, but these guys are oblivious to anything but their own idiotic jack-off self agrandizement.

They contemptuously insult and attack everyone around them, then snivel and whine when someone responds in like terms.

Heck No? Fuck Off, COINTELPRO pig-bait! You are incapable of intelligent discussion. I tried, and it was a complete waste
of time and energy.

Don't feed the Trolls 22.Apr.2002 16:15

Sara Moore

Don't feed the Trolls

Organized anarchists a threat to your control 22.Apr.2002 18:29

heckno mbthink@hotmail.com

Really..
Some one stands up and say's that people of a like mind should work together and all you can say is TROLL
Maybee it's whack cultish behavior on my part to believe that I know some really decent anarchists. I've faced real police recrimination along side anarchists. Grown food with them. Wept along side them..
Anarchy to me is less about the dreams of today than it is about the reality i'll make tommorow. This faith (I can admit that) is about creating positive change in the world by challenging authority in yourself. This hardly makes anarchists superior. Just different. In the same way that buddhists, christians, luddites, and commie's are all different. People have lots of ways in wich they are different. I think this is a good thing. I think it positivly reflects our relationship with the earth. I don't think our (the eviroments, humanity's) diversity should be swept aside. Especially in the name of one plurality or another. Weather it's capitalism, socalism, chaos worship, or any other ISM. It's this drive to monopolize this drive to govern our -every living creatures- lives, beliefs, and resources- that is the ROOT of all our oppresson. Governance or domination by others is the root of all oppresson. It is the force that people use to justify rape, murder, hate, and all the other examples of contol that you seek to sully my name with. OUR communities name with.
Many commie's political critiques have been shot down as not recognizing opresson that isn't always centered in the work place. Racism-sexism-etc. I aggree with these people on this point. I havn't seen an example of an work based organizational model that has effectivly remedied the ails of our social condition. Maybee I'm blind. Maybee I'm not looking hard enough. Maybee you could help me. Cause for christs sake I read a lot of books, go to a lot of meetings, and it still seems like I don't know very many people willing to work, or sacrafice for thier liberty.
Maybee these are the words of an extremist, a wacko, but let me tell you somthing. That cops boot in my back shattered any notion that my liberal politics were working. And that next year in seattle when I saw old ladies bieng beaten, innocent folks just watching on the curb, WINGERS YELLING SHAME, It shattered any notion that yours were eather.

YOU SAY YOU TRIED TO TALK WITH ME
last thing I knew your address wouldn't work
I presumed you hung up..

feed me a rat 22.Apr.2002 18:58

drunken

This is some insight into androids rather disturbed and emotional unstable rant on the
green anarchists of Eugene. S/he seems to be leaving a trail of evidence as it scurrys along
trying to gnaw away with a jealous twitch at alot of peoples hard work here in Eugene.

This rat/pig seems to know alot about the internal workings of the Eugene IMC even before
it is fully up and running. A couple of quotes within their rant came directly from an
email list serve from the Eugene imc, only if you're on this list serv would you be able to
quote from it so quickly.

This rat/pig also seems to know alot about the workings of the portland imc and imc's in
general. Some serious background within this world.

But most of all something must have happened to this vermin down here in Eugene that
makes it spin around like a mad rat trying to bite any green anarchists that gets in its way.
Maddness somettimes enters a vermins brain when they don't get their way.

Gee, I wonder who this vermin could be.

"Don't speak to me of revolution until you're ready to eat rats to survive..."
-The Last Poet, 1972

Bon Appetit

Another typical response: drunken shithead 22.Apr.2002 20:12

android9 android9@hotmail.com (Subject: agitprop)

This response is so typical...

Info about Indymedia process is readily available to anyone who wants to monitor or participate in the work.

There are several e-mail discussion lists available at the bottom of the left-hand column, on all Indymedia pages.

I am indeed subscribed to a couple of these lists, including the Eugene list, and noticed postings from others complaining about GA interference in efforts to start up an imc there.

I do indeed have some direct experience trying to work with the GA/PC tendency, and the damage they can do, especially in sabotaging and retarding all efforts at genuine democratic discussion, decision-making process and collectivization, in a media collective I am a working member of.

During the IMC approval process, when I posted an objection to any sectarian GA dominated IMC in Eugene, my discussion list subscription was hacked and cut off, to silence me and prevent me from further monitoring the discussion until after the approval process was over.

Because I call them on their shit, I have to be a rat/pig.

But not once have any of the GA apologists addressed a single detail of the actual criticisms I have raised, preferring evasion, and adhominem personal attack and insults of the most vile nature (and then whining and sniveling when I respond in kind).

Fuck Off, passive-aggressive drunken shitheads!

One good look at the Eugene "IMC" page will confirm what I'm saying...including their selective and misrepresentative twisting of Newswire posts on this topic.

They can have their own webpage, I guess...but they should not be allowed to call it IMC.

IMC principles explicitly prohibit the bogarting of an IMC site by one sectarian clique.

At what point is bogarting eh Cheech? 22.Apr.2002 23:10

heck I don't know! mbthink@hotmail.com

Look
They say the're gonna add more buttons
They havn't drasticly fucked up the article post section
They say the site is by no means complete and ask people for input
You say that because some or maybee all of them are GA folks they're anti democratic
I dissagree with this- Because some of the most effective or meaninfull representations of democracy that I've seen are fought for and built by anarchists.
And I guess I'm supposed to take your word for it
after listening to you bash anarchists for the last few months
Listen
On a recent post concerning Beth the tree sitter some members of yer local indysite came out as anarchists and said that they were not responsible to some authority outside thier collective. I don't think they should be.
I am in no way a representitive of the pdx or any Imc for that matter. Though I'd be proud to be. (a member)
I'm sure you chalk this up as little more than a kind of plausible deniability a tactict to deny collective or member responsability.
I wouldn't.
I see it as sweat equity
You no doubt think that property is theft
and in a way you'd be right
But that argument has also been used to colonize peoples
and trash beautiful ecosystems
I believe that cooperatives should be able to determine the course of thier partnerships for themselves.
You would no doubt say that I am in essence giving groups the rights of individuals
But are not the Soux, Soux?
And shouldn't they be able to determine thier course as they see fit?
What next you'll be asking us to vote for the national imc presedent - (position responsabilities and benefits include- safegaurding democracy for the indy nation- defending us all from those pesky GA invadors!- expanding the war against sectarian ideas- and a cool crackerjack decoder ring to decipher your nonsense.)

cointelprobait?
as if anyone could deserve that.

co-opting radical feminism 24.Apr.2002 11:28

dorrie

i agree with the comparison of eugene's "green anarchists" to facists, but please leave paganism and jihad out of it...these privileged STRAIGHT WHITE MEN are NOT representative of all anarchists in eugene, but they sure claim to be. (and their way is the one RIGHT WAY, after all.) the part that makes me really sick is the "inclusion" of the "radical feminism" button~ this is supposed to legitimize or excuse their continual misogyny, i suppose? the green anarchy publication regularly makes statements that are blatantly sexist; even woman-hating, as well as RASCIST...just because they let their GIRLFRIENDS include their approved projects on the website does'nt make it radical or feminist.

Heck Doesn't Know Jack 24.Apr.2002 12:40

android9 android9@hotmail.com (subject: agitprop)

I have never attacked anarchy, nor militance, per se.

I do severely criticize certain specific aspects of the rhetoric and practice of the "Green Anarchist" primitivist chaoticist tendency, which I consider bogus and suspicious.

Religion, in general, tends to be a delusional opiate, and I think that's where their main error resides, leading to all the other whack aspects of their twisted perspective.

As usual, you mix me up with somebody else. I am not a member of an IMC site (so I was unable to block consensus on the Eugene site). The media collective I work with is not in your bioregion, and has not issued any such statements as you mention, although it is true we all consider ourselves anarchists. These posts are my own, however, and not official collective communiques.

Issues I have raised are about specific aspects of GA/PC rhetoric and practice really have nothing to do with my own credentials. Either I am correct in my observations, or I am not, more or less.

Dedication, effort, sincerety, even sacrifice for a cause do not automatically make that cause just, legitimate or rational. Aryan Nations is very dedicated, very sincere, etc, but they are still whack.

Your evasive attempts at "reason" and "logic" are too pitiful to waste time on. But I will say that Sioux, and other traditional tribal cultures, should not be romanticized and idealized into some delusional concept.

Autonomy of the individual, or of any group, must be subject to the overall public interest, as determined by a just and legitimate consensus-seeking democratic process. If not, they tend to become elitist and opportunist, parasitic, even counter-revolutionary.

Let me give you a clue for your decoder ring:

Anarchy is about SOCIAL self-determination, free of elites. Democracy now, not some day, maybe.

Only bourgoise ultra-individualists define Anarchy as some kind of individual (or group) license to say "fuck everybody else, I'm going to do whatever I want".

Anarchy requires strict suppression, by coercion, of counter-revolutionary anti-democratic tendencies.

Call me a Stalinist Fascist, if you want, but I think all Republicans should be arrested. I'm not saying drag them all out into the street and shoot them...they should get a fair trial first. This is not about being mean, "just like them".

Ecocide and genocide are politically incorrect, and must be severely suppressed.

"COINTELPRO pig-bait" is a lot nicer than calling you an actual cop...it gives you the benefit of the doubt, assuming that you are merely a dupe, rather than a conscious traitor.

It may be more than you deserve, but hey, I'm a nice guy, really, and I hate to write anybody off...

YOU'RE A SAD, SINKING SACK OF SHIT 24.Apr.2002 14:39

plain and simple

""Your evasive attempts at "reason" and "logic" are too pitiful to waste time on.""

IT COULDN'T BE MORE OBVIOUS YOU WASTE NO TIME ON REASON OR LOGIC. YOUR RABID SELF-CONTRADICTION IS ALL THE *DECODING* ANYONE WITH A BRAIN NEEDS:

""Anarchy is about SOCIAL self-determination, free of elites. Democracy now, not some day, maybe.
...
Anarchy requires strict suppression, by coercion, of counter-revolutionary anti-democratic tendencies.""

THERE WILL BE NO DANCING AT ALL AT ANDROID9'S REVOLUTION.

Dance Your Life Away 24.Apr.2002 19:40

android9

Go ahead and dance...while capitalism slaughters the planet.

But there is more to life than self-gratification. Revolution is not a goddamn bourgeois garden party.

Struggle with a smile on your lips, and a song in your heart, by all means, if you can...but your subjective and equally evasive irrelevent response further reflects just how escapist, cheerless, and extremely harsh your particular perspective really is...

Your tendency lashes out defensively, with severe hostility, without once addressing the basic complaint, namely that IMC sites are not supposed to be controlled by one sectarian splinter group...not to mention the other irrational and illogical aspects of GA/pc idiocy.

And any fool who thinks Anarchy, democracy, justice, or peace will ever be achieved without suppressing the Bourgeoisie is...a fool. Capitalism will defend their "right" to be eco-raping genocidal rip-off pigs, to the death.

Until people like Bush, his daddy, and all their cronies are brought to justice by a popular revolutionary democratic mandate, we are just blowing it out our ass!

I will dance...on the grave of capitalism!

science is key to revolution. 24.Apr.2002 20:26

redworker

android9 has made excellent points. i would have to agree 100 percent this his/her analysis. it would be hard to add much at all.

either green anarchism is totaly divorced from any form of objective reality that stems from encomprehensable ignorence of social systems, or it is a dogma of phycotic mass murders that cannot see the practical end results of their ideology...

industrial collapse would usher in an era of starvation, starting in africa, moving into asia, latin america, and then the west. that is, the most marginlized and exploited class on the planet would die in mass.

the cival break down in these societies would unleash wars along communal, racial, religous and tribal lines. the vultures would do fine. were hunger failed, genocide and blood lust would fill the gaps.

touching on the enviromental devastaion that industrail collapse/chaos would bring about. the cooling towers will go off line and the world wide melt down of all reactor cores would commence. the cyanide ponds in the amazon basin (and thruogh out the world's mining operations) would collapse with out maintenince, posioning every fish run in the region for generations (assunming survivabiltiy). thats the tip of the iceburge of ecologial devastation the green anarchists would impose.

the animals that green anarchists fret so much for would be wiped out as humanity strips ever last bit of protien from the planet in a desperate attempt to survive.

such a social policy transends the butcher stalins forced collectivation, and would make pol pot look progressive (after all, we has down with agriculture). hitler would reject such a perspective as insane.

the green anarchist response is that there are to many people on the planet. industrail collapse would certainly "thin the herd". chaos indeed.

the problem with green anarchism stems from the rejection of the scientific method and rationality, and a turn towards mysticism and idealism.

it should be of no surprize that such a clique in encapable of looking at the material conditions of society and attempting to craft a solution that gets as many people out alive as possible.

ironicly, these horsemen/women of the apocolypse, these that would ruin the world with the industail waste of the last century, condeme the masses to butchery, disease and of "starvation have the gaul to attack realistic and progressive revolutionaries as authoraterian tyrants.

yes, it is lamentable but probable that the counter revolutionary elements of society will have to be violently suppressed. history (if you would take the time to exaimine it, well, scientificly) is quit clear on this on. thats why it's called a revolution. the ruling class will not go out with a wimper, they will have be pushed off the planet at gun point.

thats a damn sit more peaceful and less oppresive for the vast majority then the insane blind nillhism that the green anarchist prescribes.

Acting like idiots 24.Apr.2002 20:35

Rick-pdx

I'm reading alot of hostile energy on this thread.Somebody must feel pretty strongly about EIM. Some good points have been raised though,like the fact that when a person is too one-sided,and not listening to all sides and respecting other peoples opinions,this is a very negitive thing. This could apply to people on both sides of this argument,we should not risk becoming zealots,when we think we are always right,we become very self rightious,and that is when we turn into complete idiots.

I aggree 24.Apr.2002 21:28

heckno

A person without liberty in thier heart, cannot fashon a free community. That's the nature of my argument with these people. They want an anarcho COMMUNIST PARTY. I want a community based revolution. There's a differnce. I think that tribes or small town made up of free individuals can support themselves. I look to the roycrofters of east aurora NY as an example. Sure they were capitalists but that doesn't mean I can't learn anything from them. I look to indigenoius communities. I see that people have to a degree achieved sustainability. I want this. I do not want to live in a nightmare world where the problems of nine million people require an industrialized fix of technocracy. That we should extinguish other species to make way for our geneticly ingeneered crops, so that we can feed 9 billion people. No way. I want a community based solution. I do not want maximized production. I want equality of life for all. I want everyone to have the time and skills to make things well. So that we can escape this cycle of efficientcy that allows us to produce billions of tons of garbage. If a person sorounds themself with things that are time consuming labors of love the human condition will rise. The love you liberate is the love you keep. (elbert hubbard)

4 questions. 24.Apr.2002 23:11

redworker

heckno.

i realize you want to live like a tribal person in the woods or something.thats fine. you should find some people and go do that.

i had to grow up in hippy communes, so i'am a little less keen on the idea.

the need we face as a planet is to get to a level of ecological and social sustainability. the question is, how do we get there from here?

i do have a few questions on how green anarchists plan to do this. i would like direct answers if possible.

1). assuming that the human population is to large to support itself ecologicaly, what do you propose happen to the "surplus" population?

2). what methods would green anarchist use to clean up the ecological problems furnished by capitalism?

3). what sort of social organization is capable waging international revolution against capitalism? who does it appeal to, and what does it promise to mobelize people?

4). to the extent that tribal structures still exist, and this seems a model for green anarchist social relationshipes, are there examples today that one may point to? what do you say about examples, both current and historical, of tribal wars resulting in the death of many thousands of people?

please, i would love to hear direct answers to these questions.

genocidal maniacs could@least start w/selves 25.Apr.2002 11:59

adthsarth

violence-crazed bourgeouis zerzan neoprimitivists would seem to be the most obvious candidates for a "surplus population".

TRUTH - HONESTY - ANSWERS 25.Apr.2002 19:20

heck "the caveman" inside yer box mbthink@hotmail.com

First
I reject the preamble to all your questions. I don't feel inclined to accept any position of AUTHORITY which says that one segment of any population is arbitrary or "surpluss."
I will repond directly however. I feel that as with problem wich humanity faces as a whole, or as communities directly, there exists a community based solution. I do not respect the unfounded assumption that people cannot face thier problems. I want to epower people to do this. I aggree that there are too many people. I think that there is more than one reason for this. I believe that there is more than one way for comunities to take this or any problem on. I feel that individuals in communities should do this, NOT GOVERNMENTS!
I think that free birth control is one Idea that seems positive. That strengthening the ties of women and womens communities does too. I think that education about bieng a parent could help. I believe that having meaningfull work to do and living in a culture that discourages women from having it is another part of this problem. I think that the consumerest plurality in which we are immersed is consiously dumbing people down. Encouraging them to breed. In order to keep our relationships transient, and immaterial. I think that having communites that know each other, doing meaningfull work that supports thier families and neighbors, is a positive way to combat the indutrialized forces which drive us to breed to excess.
It scares me that you seem to think that some people are surpluss and that others are not. People arn't property..

#2
I am not a representitive of any GA faction. I agree with many of thier beliefs. For example I support the Earth Liberation Front. I am against industrialization. I want a community based revolution. I am not however a worshipper of chaos. Or wanna be cave man as you infer. I am not saying that all ga folks are eather.
Again
I believe that the problems that plauge our peoples and the enviroment will be solved by hardworking individuals, and community based solutions. Capatalism is a social system that principal motivation is the control or government of anothers labor. To benefet at anothers expense. It's key weakness as a social system (besides the greed inherient to it) is it's FALSE ASSIGNMENT OF VALUE. It says that a piece of paper can represent an hour of your work. It says that anothers work has more value than yours. These are the lies which keep it in power. It makes our very lives a modicum of exchange. I personally would fight this by organizing a collective buiseness of peers from among my skill group. It's primary goal would be the democratic empowerent of it's members, and thus society as a whole. Think about it! If more people were working harder doing things they love, making things which lift up the human condition, spending less time making and consuming trash, wouldn't the main worry facing the earth be brought to a grinding halt? Wouldn't this kind of change effect a revolutionary shift in the way we behave? Shouldn't any revolution twards democracy reflect the very diversity of life which makes our earth strong? I believe that the problem that the earth faces is the same one that it's people's do. DOMINATION, governance, or the essignment of false value.

#3 >What sort of social organization is capable waging international revolution against capitalism?
<Communitys based oranizations of, by, and for the empowerment of free individuals. I am. You are. We just need to remedy the distance between our thoughts and our actions.
>Who does it appeal to, and what does it promise to mobelize people?
Anyone who wants to feel free to think and act freely. Not be coerced into governing others or into accepting thier government. Anybody who's tired of the our these fucking corperations sueing to force us into accepting cell towers on our church steeples. Anyone who's tired of bieng told that because of some arbitrary distinction like thier sex or race thay cannot get meaningfull work. Anybody who's tired of watching thier planet get raped. Thier communities
get bombed. Thier children taken. Thier lives stolen by people who don't care. Anybody who wants to be free to think for themself and have a community of support. It is CURRENTLY calling for all peoples of all distinctions to put down thier leaders and fight for a COMMUNITY BASED REVOLUTION!

#4
Very few indigenous cultures have not been exterminated. A friend of mine named Sunsong is writing thesis on a tribal community in Wisconsin that's being looked to by the foresting community world over as the most advanced practitioners of forestry known to exist. She said that C.F.A. is siting her work.

I would say that more people have died in the industrialized wars of the few centurys than in all the previous wars combined. I would assert that at that time when truths diologe fails and a people are faced with unjust oppression they have JUST CAUSE TO FIGHT.

That sometimes, change comes from the barrel of a gun.

heck!

get it right. 25.Apr.2002 21:17

mao

"political power grows from the barrel of a gun"*-not a community garden. you filthy pagen peasent.



*mao tse tung jr. 2002

not realy what i was looking for 25.Apr.2002 23:46

redworker

heckno,

1). i either poorly worded my question, or you misunderstood. i do not believe that there are to many people on the planet. i believe that every body on this planet could have 3 square meals a day, education, and economic security if productive capacity and distribution systems functioned rationaly, with the social values of liberty, equality and soliderity.

i believe that inagrated global and industrailized production and distribution system will be required for this task. capitalism may be able to deliever the technology, but not the social values for this structure.

2). how will a small community of freinds and nieghbors clean up spent nuculear waste? how will it clean the toxins from the river or clean up brownfields and treat the soil?
how will it dismantle nuclear reactors?

hard work is fine, but with out the skills and technical infrastructure, such endeavors will result in failure at best, and human costs at worst. hard work and community values mean nothing to a cancer cell.

we can clean this mess up once the economy functions for human need and not profit. we have the knowledge to clean much of the mess (not all to be sure) that the last century made, it's just "cost prohibitive" under capitalism.

we cant do that with flint napped stone and pointy sticks. we need science and technology to live sustainably on earth. oll 6 billion of us (minus a few capitalists)

3)capitalism is a international system. know more then ever it makes decisions that transcend national boundries. some corpratists believe that the transnational corporation will be the next stage of social order, that does away with the nation state. wrap your anarchist brain around that one. no government, only straight power concepts.

small communities of people responding to local conditions cannot fight capitalism. this class starves out regional pockets of resistence to it's order, that is the mission of the imf and the global order. where nationalist third world elites respond to populist pressure to oppose "structual adjustments" these internationalist capitalists bodies attack with economic ruin_starvation. cascadia would fare little better. look and cuba or venasuela for salient examples.

the only solution is to create an internationalsit democratic frame work based on the power of the working class to wage a cordinated struggle for the entire planet. the days of regionalism or nationalism are over. our enemy has long since conqured such approachs, new thinking is required.

going back to decentalized tribal stradigies to deal with capitalism is akin to disarming your self in a gun fight and picking up a rock or stick. it is suicide. we cannot fuck around like that, the future must be ours.


4) look, tribel wars are just as bloody as any other. the thing that changed was technology. modern tribes such as the dayaks in indonisia, or tutsi's in rawanda have proven their ability to wage genocidal wars in the past 5 years or so.

anasazi culture engaged in cannibalism, as did many tribes thruogh out the pacific (including the dayaks, in the very recent past). on easter island the speculation is that intercine tribal warfare destoyey the entire culture. in the amazon basin the murder rates amoungst the tribal people are quite high. higher then in any american city.

we can't turn the clock back. it was never all that great any way. lets move FORWARD in a progressive way, together, as all humanity. wash away the class system, the patriarchy, nationalism and religious differences

tribal or regionalist perspectives lead to nation states and modern warfare.

celebrate, incorporate and intergrate all of humanity into a world culture that celabrates the positive and progressive eleaments of all cultures, and represses and destroys backwardness and small minded bigotry.

LONG LIVE GREEN ANARCHY 26.Apr.2002 18:53

android with my head up my ass

so eugene indyedia isn't exactly like all the rest (the horror!!!!) so some liberal zombie has got his/her panties all in a bundle. somehow i dont think anyone really gives a shit. boo hoo.

Eugene Anarchists join forces with Rush 27.Apr.2002 00:12

stamp

The Eugene Anarchists and Rush Limbaugh held a joint press conference today to announce that they are joining forces to smash the liberals.

The Eugene crew praised Rush for his excellent sarcasm and marveled at his ability to avoid issues by characterizing people as liberals saying, "We have learned alot from listening to Rush."

Rush commented, "At first I found some of their ideas odd, but once I found out we had a common hatred of liberals, we started to hit it off. The clincher came when I saw how vehemently they attacked anyone who thought differently from them, and I knew I had found kindred spirits."

The press conference finished with everyone shouting "dittos" for the cameras.

front groups 30.Apr.2002 08:54

the burningman

The IMC is not a front group for anarchists. Stop trying to make it into one. If you guys, primitivist or whatever want a website, make one.

Just don't co-opt the name of the IMC to do it. Infoshop.org is an example of an anarchist website that utilizes many of the same principles as the IMC and is itself independent media. It's just not the "IMC."

I would like to point out that no other political trend is trying to "brand" IMC like the anarchists. Austin, Eugene and San Francisco have all become explicitly anarchist sites. What a waste. Can't you guys do your own thing without drawing lines on who is in and who is out?

What the hell is the Ga? 17.Oct.2003 13:06

midwest anarcho punk Drop busnchaney@hotmail.com

I'm not one to go with what he's heard but is it true, is there a group out there that calls themselves anarchist and are elites at the same time? this seems ridiculous. I have just finished a paper in college, it was on punks self segregating themselves from other people, and how untill 4 or 5 yrs ago I didnt know this. there are consiquences for anarchist and punks who seem to be going on an elitus path. I think the liberals ,the anarchist,and the communist should all stop fucking fighting and stop worrying over what the revolution will be called, for christ shit! who cares. Did the green anarchist really chum it up with rush? anarchist should stop bashing hippis , liberals, and comunist, refer to Alexander Berkmen's work. All social change movements should unite and find common ground, thats what was so sucessful about the WTO protest, I personaly am tired of groups squabling over whose revolutin it is, ITS THE PEOPLES REVOLUTION. I wouldnt want it to be totaly anarchist, comunist, or democratic when the revolution comes, I would like to see what a society would be like with a mixture of all sides, after all that would be true people power. I dont think the GA are into chaos, but then I really dont know anything about them one things for sure if they are, they should look at few dictionary definitionts, and then ignore the ones with the word chaos in the meaning. PEACE,
Midwest Anarcho-punk
I know I spell poorly so, so what

Notes From A Green Anarchist 30.Oct.2003 11:36

Green Man socially_challenged@hotmail.com

I do not agree that primitivism is "counter-revolutionary." As far as I'm aware, primitivism has nothing to do with reversing what revolutionaries have fought for, and as long as the primitivist movement is non-violent, and welcomes people of all colors and walks of life, it is not fascistic. To call a primitivist a fool because she "romanticises" the aboriginal ways of life is like the pot calling the kettle black. Let's face it, we're all romantics - Karl Marx was a fool for thinking that any strain of revolutionary politics was "scientific" - it's all Utopian in one way or another. But that's not going to stop us from trying to get as close to perfect as we can.

Yes, I am aware that there was a Green movement within Hitler's regime, but that does not mean that all Greenies are meanies. I don't personally know a single fascistic green person, anarchist or otherwise. I've read some fascists on websites talk about wiping out the human race, and I'm sure there are plenty of Neo-nazis who embrace bioregionalism, but not every bioregionalist is a nazi or a fascist.

The problem many "red" anarchists have with green anarchists is our distaste for industrialism and the fact that we abhor "work". This is understandable, many Red Anarchists feel a non-industrialised future will make them jobless (which isn't true). Another issue is overpopulation, which is mainly a green issue and not a red issue. However, if you look hard enough, it's readily apparent that we are reaching critical mass in our post-industrial society - we will soon ALL have to face this issue, greens and reds alike. And of course, none of us wants to see anyone die, but the way we are going people will die - people ARE dying and overpopulation is a big factor in that.

As far as Green Anarchists (esp. primitivists) maintaining that their way is the only way, I think this is because many of us green anarchists are so afraid for our future as it is manifesting, much the same way that other revolutionaries are afraid of the way things are currently heading. While we are pointing to the environmental concerns, Red Anarchists are pointing at the streets teeming with the hungry, homeless, and downtrodden. Yet make no mistake, the differences between Red and Green anarchists have more to do with focus than actual disparity. We green anarchists care just as much about the problems of capitalism and government, and we are there to help the homeless and hungry in any way possible just as the Red Anarchists are.

It may seem a bit elitist to say that all forms of anarchism eventually lead to a greener way of life, and therefore all forms of anarchism are really green, but I would have to agree. I don't think we are as different from other anarchists as many would seem to think we are. We're all against fascism, we're all anti-capitalist, we're all against government, and most importantly we all share the same concerns for the well-being of our fellow humanbeings. And where human beings are concerned, so is the environment - we all have to breathe clean air, drink clean water, we all need land to grow food on, to live on, and we all are tied into the great but very delicate web of life.

Hillsboro, Oregon

Red and Green Unite! 30.Oct.2003 11:50

Green Boy socially_challenged@hotmail.com

Green and Red anarchy are not at all different. It's just a matter of where our current focus lies as anarchists. Greens tend to look at the environment, Reds to Capitalism. But we're all anti-government, and we're all concerned for the well being of humanity, so in the end, we'll all be concerned with the environment: the earth is being polluted, and we're all having to wallow in the filth and disease. In the end, all forms of anarchism are green, simply because we all make our home here on earth, and we're all connected in the big web of life.

True Green Anarchism isn't any more Utopian than Red Anarchism, we're all romantics, but that ain't gonna stop us, right? (Marx was wrong, their ain't no such thing as "scientific socialism"... it's all a product of a form of religion and spiritualism - all concerned with the "better good" for humanity, whatever that may be.) And for the love of all that is Good, we are NOT fascists! I've heard so-called primitives talk of wiping out humanity, and forcing the world into a new dark-age, but those people are war-mongers, and are by definition NOT anarchists, green or otherwise. They should know that anyone who reads into the current problems with the world will naturally come to the conclusion that we cannot continue blindly down the path we are heading, with talk of increasing the life-span of human beings, genetically altering our foods, etc. I have faith that all anarchists are pretty smart, and therefore will think green eventually. Let's not worry about our petty differences when we all have so much in common.

So you children of the world, listen to what I say
If you want a better place to live in, spread the words today
Show the world that love is still alive, you must be brave
Or you children of today are Children of the Grave, Yeah!
- Black Sabbath, "Children of the Grave"

the last word 05.Apr.2004 12:09

bambi

GREEN ANARCHY is a front!!!
... for all the wild animals that haven't bothered to learn English or try to communicate with stubborn, violent humans.
This is my first time using the computer box, as I am a deer and I usually spend my days eating greens and shitting in the woods, but I would like to let everyone know that will we wait no longer!!! You're either with us or against us!!!!!