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Militants Take the Streets

Hundreds of mostly young anti-imperialist militants took to the streets of Portland, Or Sunday afternoon in defiance of "America's New War." The unpermitted march was very spirited, fun and confrontational.
Militants Take the Streets

Hundreds of mostly young anti-imperialist militants took to the streets of Portland, Or Sunday afternoon in defiance of "America's New War." The unpermitted march was very spirited, fun and confrontational. The march followed a rally at Portland State University which featured speakers including Romona Africa of the MOVE organization and Craig Rosebraugh, former spokesperson for the Earth Liberation Front. The march was billed as a March Against US Imperialism.

At the beginning of the march 30 or more up-side-down American flags were handed out, mixing in with a good number of anarchist black and red and black flags. This crowd was fired up and fed up with all the nationalism and jingoism we have had to put up with. Chants against the war, against John Ashcroft, and against the State were all enthusiastically picked up. At its height the march had close to 300 people.

The march went from PSU campus through downtown to the US Federal Building, twice. The march also went around Pioneer Square (Shop, Shop, Shop, While the Bombs Drop). On the way to the Square Anarchist Circle As were spray painted on the windows at Starbucks and on the wall at Niketown.

During the second pass by Pioneer Square most of the American Flags were set on fire in the middle of the street. The March then invaded a Shopping Mall just east of Pioneer Square. It was at this point that the riot cops finally appeared. Cops had generally just followed behind the march for the first hour or more, but now the fully geared riot squad was on hand when the march emerged from disrupting holiday shopping. The marchers retook the streets and started marching back to Pioneer Square. Riot cops ran up both sides of the march and cut off the route past the square forcing folks to take a left and head South. By now the numbers had dwindled and the marchers headed back to PSU.

Overall this action was a huge success. It was unpermitted, loud and militant. It showed not everyone is for this war. The march got away with a lot: spray painting slogans, burning large numbers of flags, generally doing what we wanted to do. We should all be very proud.
Disagree 16.Dec.2001 20:20


I didn't see this illegal activity around Nike or the other stores. I cannot agree or support this. I have participated actively in the weekly marches held by PPRC at Pioneer square. If this is the kind of thing PPRC supports, I will not attend any further marches. This is too extreme.
Anyone who wants to discuss this with me can meet with me tomorrow at 8PM at the Red and Black Cafe. I will be glad to discuss it with them then.
Harassing shoppers and annoying the police is not the path to justice.

Peace Please

Not PPRC 16.Dec.2001 20:41


This was not a PPRC event. This was put on by no particular group.

Marching is important, but so is one-to-one 16.Dec.2001 20:52

Ami Izquierda

I'm really glad this march was successful. We really do need visibility, and it really feels great to know we have brothers and sisters with us, that we are not isolated and alone.

Today while Portland activists marched downtown, less than a dozen of us went door-to-door gathering signatures for the PAC2002 Police Accountablility Initiative. Perhaps because of the Christmas season a lot of people weren't home. A few people were hostile or apathetic. But we did get some signtures.

And we got more than that: We talked to people, and in doing so we too demonstrated and learned: that we activists are just regular people; that we can and will take charge of our destiny; that (in Lloyd Marbett's words) democracy is not a spectator sport; that it is easy to take some action, (sign an initiative petition, register to vote, learn more).

We have less than five weeks to gather at least 2000 more signatures. We need a minimum of 400/week. This week we only made about 200. This isn't good. So I am really hoping that some of you who were at the wonderful demo today will please join us this next Saturday at Doris's Cafe, 325 N. Russell, at 1pm. This is a great opportunity to meet some great people, and really put your idealism to work to accomplish something for the greater good. Besides, we really NEED you.

For more info: call 503-287-2255; or info@pac-2002; or www.pac-220.org

good march today 16.Dec.2001 22:27


it was excellent to see a radical march in portland again. . .

one thing pleasing was to see people approaching passersby, handing out literature and letting people know more what the march was about.

the upsidedown flags. . .yes!

will post pics tomorrow. . .

agree 16.Dec.2001 23:10

tricky cick

oh my, oh my, THIS IS TOO EXTREME WAH. I don't mean to sound nasty but fuck, this is serious.MR. put food on your family in the WHITE(kkk)house is the figurehead of the most extreme and most oppressive, racist, fascist, nation going. It's right here where you live. Globalization, OR ELSE. Sooo i'm marching today and as usuall i'm choking on the fumes that come from what I like to believe is the catalyst for the war. But the mother fucking death machines (CARS) are just the symptom. It's this decadent capitalist nightmare. WAH WAH I don't wanna march with folks who spray paint. Too bad i'm sorry but if know what's happening and what's at stake you have no choice but to march, it's our responsibility as caring, sharing, loving humans. Some people are just more angry than you about this clandestine fascist nightmare that we call the land of the free. IT WAS TOO EXTREME FOR GEORGE BUSH TOO TURN OFF THE AIR CONDITIONING IN ALL THE PRISONS TOO CONSERVE ENERGY BACK WHEN HE WAS GOVENOR OF TEXAS(MANY DIED) IT WAS TOO EXTREME FOR OUR GOVERNMENT TO MURDER FRED HAMPTOM WHILE HE SLEPT,TOO EXTREME TO FORCE FRANKEN FOOD ON US, OR SWEAT SHOPS, COINTELPRO, SEGRAGATION, SLAVERY, WAR. FUCK CORPORATE AMERIKA. IF YOU LOVE IT LEAVE IT. GIVE THE LAND BACK TOO THE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT IT. XOXOXOXOXO

For those of you who value the right to shop 17.Dec.2001 00:09

... over the right to speak out and act up

I quote Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberties for a measure of security, deserve neither liberty nor security."

!! 17.Dec.2001 03:59

victoria sephyla@moose-mail.com

I didn't notice the spray painting, but who knows. maybe it happened. I'll keep an eyeball out for it on my way to work in a few hours. even if this had been a pprc event (and it wasn't), I think its unfortunate that anyone would refrain from attending future pprc events based on the actions of a few people. its foolish to hold anyone but the individuals responsible, and to abandon an important cause for that reason is absurd.
I didn't feel heading for the mall was the best idea, as I don't think the best way to bring people around is by completely disrespecting them... but I really don't think anything that happened today was "too extreme". I think its about time we all made alot of noise about this war and I rather wish pprc *did* sponsor a march like this every week. hopefully more people will begin heading out to pioneer courthouse square every friday for the rally they do have at 5. it may not be as "extreme" as today's, but its still worth going to....
on another note, would anyone know where I could get photos from today's march? I noticed some people had cameras. I'd like to use them for an article. thanks much, take care everyone.

Militancy is great: BUT YOU NEED A TARGET!! 17.Dec.2001 07:03

Chavo Cheque

I was at yesterday's march, which I thought was neither "too extreme" nor very effective or empowering.

Given the complete absence of interesting actions against the war in portland, the march was a great start. But in terms of exacting costs from those who create and benefit directly from war, it can only be considered a failure.

The fact that no leaflets were handed out (save a few made by lone individuals) makes it clear that the objective of the action was not to reach, educate or entertain people. Rather, the appearance and tone of the march signified that the goal was more along the lines of discomfiting, disrupting, and disobeying.

That is GREAT, but without a target, some tactical unity and at least scant on-the-street communication structure, what you are left with is the macho posturing and bravado that dominated yesterday's action.

People sure were chanting and talking about disrupting business as usual, but not even the minimal police presence resulted in any substantive action that disrupted or harmed capital or the state. I think making people uncomfortable by reminding them of the sanguine reality that undergirds their holiday shopping is useful, but if we're harrassing working people more than our Congressional delegation, Feds, and Fat Cats, then we are as ineffective and masturbatory as the PPRC!

If you wanna reach people, organize. If you wanna fuck shit up, stop talking about it and DO IT.

the difference 17.Dec.2001 09:07

former pprc organizer

the difference between yesterday's rally, which was awesome and the pprc's rallies is planning, risk, and accountability.

the pprc is slowly being co-opted by those still on board and/or the bureaucratic system that holds us all back. voting, member approval, etc. keeps the pprc at an 'acceptable' level for anyone to get involved. that's great, but i have come to realize that the idea of acceptable is the same concept of failure that ramona africa was talking about yesterday. how can we let the system advise us on how to beat it? exactly.

the only way we will make a difference, THE difference, as many of my brothers and sisters have already said, is to get out there and fuck shit it. no one takes the credit, no one is accountabile, just a cooperative effort. it can be done, it has been done nummerous times in the past.

we gotta be clever, sneaky, behind the scenes, trusting only those we absolutely know; this is the way to revolution.

"vassals of rich men.." 17.Dec.2001 10:30


May we find the courage that Afgan mothers and fathers are finding to protect themselves and children from US bombs. Courage to go beyond what we're comfortable with and to realize that it is people who live in the belly of the beast that have acsess to the tender spots.

Just thought that alot of people will be checking the comments out over yesterdays march and thought the following would get to a lot of readers.

Asked to give a toast before the prestigious New York Press
Club, John Swinton, the former Chief of Staff at the New York
Times, made this candid confession [it's worth noting that
Swinton was called "The Dean of His Profession" by other
newsmen, who admired him greatly]:

" There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an
independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one
of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you
know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly
for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected
with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and
any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be
out on the streets looking for another job.

If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my
paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The
business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to
pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the
country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is
this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the
rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the
strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are
all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes. "

pacifist assertion (divided we fall) 17.Dec.2001 16:26

anti-militarism nomorebases@yahoo.com

You know, I used to identify myself as a peacelover. This was before I became more dedicated in my area of activism in the United States. Since then, I've met the few individuals in Portland who identify themselves as pacifists, and insist that peace is the ONLY way to get anything done; there are only a few of them who are so aggressive about their methods, but it only takes ONE to sour the enthusiasm.

I would counter this claim by saying that Pax Americana has been the biggest obstacle to justice for the last 5 decades or so. In my opinion, the pacifists do naught but isolate other activists when they DEMAND that everybody do and see things their way. I can't tell by KateS's post whether she was even present at the march to begin with.

However, since I can't really bring myself to spend bus fare that I can't afford, just to haul my ass all the way across town to "discuss" something with some stranger at 8 pm tonight, I will continue my part HERE on this page, as imc had intended that these discussions be continued when they designed the comment form.

I am really getting very tired of the assertion that civil disobediance is not "peaceful". What about Gandhi's Great Salt March, or Martin Luther King Jr.'s lunch counter strikes? These are possibly the most famous pacifists that modern history has recorded. What about the storming of the bombing ranges by the Viequenses and their supporters earlier this year? Do you know how long THAT struggle has been going on? We're talking decades that the US Navy has continously inflicted injustice upon the inhabitants of Vieques. It has taken years and years and years to approach the point where simple civil disobedience started to have some effect - and even that hasn't quite broken ground considering congress and Bush's actions to stall for Vieques as a dumping ground for even LONGER earlier this week.

"Peace" is increasingly transforming for me - from a beautiful ideal, into a word with a negative connotation. At the rate that the pacifists in Portland (and elsewhere, because these few folks here in river city aren't the only ones who are SO READY to condemn other people's methodology) are going, I will soon have a negative image of THEM as activists too. My observations at this point are that most of the people who suggest that it's THEIR WAY or the HIGHWAY are:

1. caucasian
2. male
3. priviledged
4. "educated"
5. all of the above

In other words, the folks who are generally at the top of the societal food chain and usually ARE heeded when they speak...I'm not trying to make an end conclusion, but just point out my observations thus far.

I find it very hard to believe that the actions of less than a dozen people - out of HUNDREDS - are to engulf the entire message here. We spent the whole time chanting about bombs dropping, and instead of seeing that as our message, people would rather zero in and focus in to some (really, folks) harmless vandalism?

Let's get real here, what is that, some spray paint, in the looming shadow of the actions of our government, who would force entire communities of people who are NOT caucasian, NOT priviledged, NOT educated, to live on their knees? Living on your knees is not life. It is up to activists to learn how to work together synergistically rather than drawing divisive lines, as I have seen done at more than one PPRC meeting, much to my dismay and exasperation.

Just to demonstrate but ONE occasion where people asked nicely for justice, the governor of Okinawa, Masahide Ohta, a survivor of the Battle of Okinawa, came to the United States with a draft of his five points of peace for Okinawa (which hosts 38 parasitic US military installations) - Congress kept him waiting in the lobby for THREE FUCKING DAYS. After those three days, they cheerfully informed him that he needed to go home, since as a foreign dignitary, his "proper avenue" was through the President. I don't think I should fill up this webpage with the *miles-long* list of indignations and insults that have been served to my people, whose culture is VERY pacifist but BECAUSE of that pacifist nature of their culture they persist in asking NICELY. They are practically apologetic in asking for their rights in the military ghetto.

All that has accomplished is 60 years of occupation.

The only Okinawans who exacted justice for themselves were the farmers from nearby Ie island who DISREGARDED THE BOUNDARIES DRAWN BY THE BASE COMMANDER AND STARTED PLANTING THEIR CROPS AGAIN. ILLEGALLY. This was the ONLY way they reclaimed their land that was rightfully theirs. NOT asking nicely.

So you will have to excuse the fuck outta me if I don't really think too much of the actions that did not cause physical or mental harm to anybody. Have you forgotten what this fight is about? People out there are dying. People out there have been dying for many years now. I shall quote Ralph Peters, a former Army officer and Dod strategist:

"The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. To those ends, we will do a fair amount of killing."

This IS incredibly fucking serious. That's why I am starting to wonder if the pacifists will do anything besides bicker about methodology and just focus on the task at hand. There is an *incredible* urgency here that seems to get diminished in the light of such bickering. This urgency is very real; I, and the rEvolution, will not wait for bickering folks to get their shit together and get moving on to more useful things.

That you would zero in with such myopic tunnel vision and condemn with such fervor some fucking spray paint on mcdonalds and nike is really quite besides the point. The article didn't even SAY anything about the PPRC, but that was mentioned nonetheless. They don't have ownership over this field of activism, you know.

Otherwise, I don't claim to be a militant, and while there were a good number of people there who were not militant (seemingly), or were not anarchist-oriented, the article is still a good representation of what happened. It WAS a good march. We were out there in fucking wind and rain from hell and all the fucking credit we get is some bullshit about spray paint and the PPRC? Cmon.

Besides the fact that the main attraction was the opportunity to hear such excellent speakers as Ramona Africa and Craig Rosebraugh. Ramona Africa said it very clearly and plainly: "There is a need for all levels of action; all roles that people play are needed in the revolution" (probably paraphrasing that a bit). I feel very fortunate to have had that opportunity to hear them express their views, and talk about their experiences. It gave me hope. Don't rob me of that.

Justice FIRST - Peace will follow.

pot calling the kettle 17.Dec.2001 19:15

stop consuming

It is amazing the power created by a short haircut. Yes I am the big clean cut guy who folks thought was a police officer. Not that it is any of your business but I am not and did not appreciate the dirty looks and being asked every two seconds if I was a cop. The touch I found truely prophetic was when a women went out of her way to spit on my shoe.

I have been involved in the activist community here in Portland in other arena's and wanted to contribute to the anti war movement locally. Well if Sunday's group is considered the "movement" here in town...move on and count me out.

Here's is a little advise on how to get the public to listen to your message rather than just yelling at yourselves.

1. Do not scream "FUCK" in crowded areas in unity.
2. Burning flags in the middle of Broadway may have felt wonderful to you, but was counter productive to educating the now pissed off other 85% of Americans who currently disagree with your stance who were standing aroung watching you.
3. Finally, get a haircut and look like a cop.


options 18.Dec.2001 03:13


I agree with the premise that the USA has been way out of line with pushing its consume to be happy mentality down the worlds throat. If everyone in the world's goal is to buy a 22 ft long SUV to be just like us, kiss the planet good bye. The Keep America Running ads on TV make me want to puke.

My question to the group is: if you could create the ideal U.S. government what would it look like?

about options, and response to mr. kettle 18.Dec.2001 07:51

anti-militarism (shit I got that url wrong) nomorebases@yahoo.com

I think that one should beware of any snake-oil medicine peddler who comes along selling a plan for a better future or a utopian government.

The best I can say at this point is that I, for one, want a government that is ACCOUNTABLE for its actions.

I want a government that does not damage the reputation of its citizens in the world and create all kinds of goddamn travel alerts for Americans because of the murderous and despicable practices of corporations and military in aiding corrupt rulers.

I want a government that will heed the voices of its people.

I want a government that incorporates the ideals of freedom and justice into its actions and not into symbols, such as flags and near-extinct bald eagles.

I want a government that does not teach so called "minorities" to hate their origins and teach "citizens" to hate immigrants.

I suppose if we have to place faith in the Great White Father's contracts and promises, well, shit, how about a government that doesn't perform actions that are prescribed as illegal by the Constitution? (but I don't have faith in the Great White Father or His empty words, promises, and contracts, so there you have it)

I think that we should be very wary of anybody who claims to have the recipe for a perfect government. Each situation must be deliberated when it happens...solutions for such situations should not be anticipated and visualized. If the government cannot amend its actions and rehabilitate itself from its goals of profit over life, then it must be torn down.

If it must be torn down, then it is up to ALL interested citizens to rebuild it with wisdom and fairness and careful deliberation. Not just the fine folks who marched on Sunday.

As for Mr. Kettle and others, the REAL peace movement has been the very awesome Peace and Justice Works, the wonderful men who make up the NW Vets for Peace, and the other groups that have been working here in portland for the last few years. Don't let your assessment of a few individuals cloud your vision. Research a little bit more about the groups that have been working so hard for so long, only to be overshadowed by a less experienced group in the last few months before you reach a final conclusion.

I didn't go to this march with the anticipation that I would be teaching citizens stuff they should try and research a little bit on their own. My goal was to voice outrage over bombs dropping; my goal was visibility of an anti-war sentiment. If folks want to learn something we're the richest country in the world, we have books and newspapers and the fucking internet; I refuse to wipe people's asses for them or mommy them through shit they should be doing as intelligent people. What the hell! They don't learn it or research these things because they DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

As for flag burning and the word fuck, those are covered by our first amendment. I suppose seeing so many neo nazi demo's around this country really has jaded me to the point where I'm not really impressed with how people get pissed off about flag burning.

Our subject matter alone will piss people off so that's a bit of a moot point. We refuse to submit to the mass mind control that has been imposed for the benefit of the warhogs, that alone will piss people off because that is a threat to their personal beliefs that we are the land of the free or whatever. Regardless of what your past experience in portland activism has been, peace work is markedly different because it challenges personal belief systems as well as the way of life that americans have become accustomed to over the past couple of generations. Let's face it, capitalism has become like a religion. so--- people ARE GOING TO GET PISSED off. NO MATTER what.

In my opinion, this is not a very peace/war conscious town; there is a dinky little base here that doesn't really affect a lot of people, and hardly any military presence or visibility whatsoever. I know, I've been trying to get people to give a shit about the military for a while now. That's just the way it is: out of sight, out of mind. Until recently of course...

it's about getting your message across 19.Dec.2001 09:47


Just a comment in support of what 'Mr. Kettle' said.

Yes, yelling 'fuck' and burning US flags in public is protected free speech. I have no problem with such things, but in a demo like this one we have to remember that they are just TACTICS - and we should consider whether these tactics are effective or counter-productive in getting the message across.

What do we want to accomplish, on this scale of potential results?

1) educate and activate people
2) wake people up
3) alienate them from us
4) turn them against us

I'd think we'd want to shoot for #1 - eduate and activate people to join us in resistance. I'd think we'd NOT want to turn people against us.

So think about what burning a bunch of flags in the street - or yelling 'fuck' in front of hundreds of ordinary people, some of them with their kids - or spraypainting the side of a building, when so many people are constantly walking in fear of (TV-hyped-up) crime... think about how most people on the street and at home watching on TV will react to those things. And what that means for the message we're trying to communicate.

I think it's naive for us to think that just by acting outside the norm and pushing boundaries, people will be snapped out of their dreamstate. Indeed, I think many people will retreat further IN to their dreamstate out of fear.

There is a time and a place for flag-burning and militant action - WTO @ Seattle, the Republican Convention @ Philadelphia are two example for me.

Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" talks about this sort of thing. Definite must-read.

to the activist who looked like a cop 19.Dec.2001 10:59


I'm one of the people who asked if you were a cop. No offense was intended, and I was glad to see you participate so actively. I'll try to keep my curiosity more restrained in the future. And, let's face it, if cops attend marches, will they admit they're cops? ... "Are you a cop?" is probably a pretty useless query.

Let's Organize! 19.Dec.2001 15:00

Activist SmrtAss212@yahoo.com

This movement is just getting started and already we have too much infighting. Anarchists, communists, socialists, pacifists. Does it really matter, at this point? Our strong points are the ones that we all agree on. U.s. imperialism must be stopped, that's universal. The rape of the world and it's inhabitants for the financial gain of a few is wrong. It has to be stopped. The details are negligible, we need to stand on what we have, what humanity itself has always tried to stand on, together. Things like liberty and justice for all: like tolerance of all ideas, all races, all beings; the right of the oppressed to rise up against their oppressor. These are things we can all agree upon and that we can use to stop the "war". To stop the exploitation. To stop the u.s from it's quest for total domination.
Many people have said that the spray painting was wrong. I agree, it lends too much of a malicious tint to the movement. Flag burning has it's place. It may not have been there, then. But lets not condemn those who do such things. We need to come up with viable options. Ideas that will send a message without alienating, without condemning, without judging the public or the people within the movement. It's judgement that causes the things we're trying to destroy.
We need to get together, and stay that way. Let's organize, people. We need to send a strong message, but let it remain positive. Let's demonstrate every week, every day. Print flyers, posters, leaflets, even post-it notes, with messages that will educate. Do your research. Teach people why their government is wrong, why it lies to them, why it must be stopped. Most of these people have lived with this propaganda all their lives. The fact that it's all been a lie is a difficult one to swallow. Explain, and be patient. Win their hearts and minds. We don't need the system to support us, but we need the people to. We need to organize teach-ins, MASS protests to the war, mailings, speeches, anything. Let's go to Seattle, or Washington d.c.. We're not organizing a bake sale, this is the future. Not just of our city or of our country, but of the world. Shall we sit back and watch as more civilians die every day? Let's get up and do something about it.

my divorce with "comforting" the public 20.Dec.2001 08:18

anti-militarism nomorebases@yahoo.com

I used to agree with all these points on appearance and public relations, etc etc. I have begun a divorce with the concept that people need to be comforted and cajoled into learning about the *murderous*, illegal actions of their government. The subject matter is going to either make their eyes glaze over or shock them. Is this our fault? Do WE Commit these acts? Did WE ask for bombs to be dropped in our name on innocent civilians?

I do not believe that this march was organized to educate people, that's just my opinion and impression based on the publicity (flyers and such) and the scene that was set by the speeches. Do I think that the march was in vain? NO, absolutely not.

While I understand about what you are saying, on the "fuck" and the spray painting thing, my question is, that in my last couple of years that I've been trying to tell people and educate them and reach out to them with diplomatic discourse and stern BUT gentle reminders of what their tax dollars go to, I hear a lot of shit about "I'm just trying to make a living, man", and other such dismissive shit.

I've been asked to "lower my voice please" by people in public areas when I'm talking to someone about something - at a normal tone of voice - about what our government does and what it doesn't publicize as far as what happens far away from this continent. I've had dozens of other people react in ways that you wouldn't believe. People do not like being reminded of this. This is denial. This is unhealthy. and it accomplishes nothing.

I have now come to realize that even though some shopper coming out of Saks 5th Ave might have been uncomfortable with seeing such a sight, my response is that IS NO FUCKING COMPARISON TO THE DISCOMFORT WE ARE CAUSING to a woman JUST LIKE HER in the Middle East, and it's time that people understood the GRAVITY of this situation.

And yes, I was thinking the same thing about "we don't want your fucking war" because it seemed like there would be kids around in the place. Again, the imperative nature of the overwhelming task at hand is just more overwhelming than their very brief discomfort. sorry.

What can I say - I don't agree with the treatment of Mr. Kettle, and if he is the one I remember I do agree with him about police being working class - albeit *brainwashed as hell*. Just like the military that I've been dealing with for years. They are brainwashed too. We must understand this if we are to try and reach ANYBODY.

We Must also understand that they WON'T LEARN SHIT IF THEY ARE ONLY CONCERNED with their immediate comforts....their little worlds...

Anyway, that's just my opinion - I don't want to give the impression that I just want to argue back and forth, though I am glad that this discussion is happening. Because I'm tired of the arguments that have been started over civil disobediance. It has a long history in the civil rights and peace movements, and I just don't understand why some people treat it like they do, and condemn other activists the way they do.

one more question for dl and others 23.Dec.2001 13:08

"auntie millie" nomorebases@yahoo.com

Quoting 'dl':

"There is a time and a place for flag-burning and militant action - WTO @ Seattle, the Republican Convention @ Philadelphia are two example for me."

This did not escape my attention earlier, and though this discussion is probably dead I am quite intrigued by this logic of and would greatly appreciate if someone could explain to me how the WTO conference and republican convention are more appropriate for flag burning than a march against US imperialism.

It seems to me that this "war against terrorism" and US imperialist practices are on a level of dire urgency that exceeds, or at least equals, the seriousness of the protests at either of those places mentioned. thanks!